The Neighborhood Church, Bentonville, AR

The Courage to Be Disliked: Faith in a Pressure-Filled World

• theneighborhood.church • Season 2025 • Episode 39

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Join Pastor Joe, Tom, and Roseanne as they share conversation about the challenges of peer pressure, generational trends, and standing firm in your faith. In this hilarious and heartfelt episode, the team takes a nostalgic trip through 90s fashion (hello, rat tails and leg warmers!) while unpacking some serious wisdom about resisting societal expectations.

Key Takeaways:

  • Faith takes courage, especially when it's not popular
  • Wisdom means standing with God, not public opinion
  • The church should be a support system that helps people resist group think

Memorable Quotes:

  • "Don't be shy. Reach out. Don't wait for someone to reach in." - Roseanne
  • "Having the courage to be disliked" - Tom Helmich
  • "God's will is what is best for us" - Roseanne

Perfect for anyone who's ever felt pressured to conform or wants to understand how to stay true to their beliefs in a challenging world. Laugh, reflect, and get inspired!

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Pastor Joe Liles:

Joe, welcome to the TNC podcast, recorded in studio, also known as the Worship Center at TNC, the neighborhood church. We are coming to you on a Wednesday, mid of the week, and just so you know what happens in middle of the week today, for example, on site, we have, Rotary coming in for the first time, which is really wonderful. So that's really awesome. We have the kids literally talking to us in the hallway, and very loud noises. Some people call it screaming, sometimes screaming. We had a kid knocking on the door a second ago. We got coffee brewing. I mean, it's just a good solid church morning. There's bacon in the house. There's already have a contractor coming in hot to fix something that's going on. So like, this is a solid church day in the life of the neighborhood, which is Roseanne. Have you had anything happened this morning already that, since you've been here in the hour?

Roseann Bowlin:

No, okay, that's that's a win, not anything the ordinary.

Pastor Joe Liles:

That's a win. That's great. Okay, so with that, let's jump into the podcast and do a little introduction on our host. My name is Joe Liles. I am the pastor here at the neighborhood church. And neighborhood church started all the way back in 2012 and we have two staff members with us, starting on my left, Director of Operations, Roseanne. Thanks, Roseanne, that's great to see you today. It's absolutely wonderful jumping in. And we have a segment, if you don't know, coming up later in the podcast. Do you have your segment ready? I do have notes. Okay, that's good. It's called Rose hands. No, you have to sing it. I do have to sing it. When table was on the podcast, right? Man, we sing it together. You harmonize. We hit some harmonies at some point, depth in there. And let's just put it this way, I'm not the harmony person. Table is definitely the person who could hit harmonies. I'm just a standard melody guy like that. That's it, right? So

Roseann Bowlin:

that means, so, yeah,

Tom Helmich:

I know what it means. I just can't do,

Pastor Joe Liles:

yeah, right, yeah. So if you don't know Roseanne, knows Roseanne joins us on Sunday, uh, staff member during the week, but is here on Sunday, just sitting as a church member. So you give takeaways for your message, right? You just sit and write notes during the message and say, Hey, sitting out here, this is what I heard. And sometimes it's Hey, Pastor Joe, I heard some great things. Other times, a couple weeks is hey, yeah, didn't have any takeaways from that message. So, and that's okay, that's okay. It hit my heart, though. But with that, we have a lot of fun with that segment, because I think it's a great identity of people and how they hear the message on a Sunday to my right pastor of care and education, the one, the only,

Tom Helmich:

formerly known as freckles. Ah,

Pastor Joe Liles:

Tom's, yeah, freckles. Where does freckles come

Tom Helmich:

from? Oh, the kids. The kids early on. Freckles, back on Airport Boulevard, yeah, in city, when you guilted me, 2014 volunteering. I don't guilt anybody volunteering. Yeah, probably 24 called by the Holy Spirit. 24 Yeah. Was right before. It was about a year before we chartered. Okay, so 2013 so yeah, probably 2013

Pastor Joe Liles:

Yeah. So Dang, that's, that's beautiful freckles. You got that name then and then

Tom Helmich:

they quit calling me freckles because it was not adult enough for them, which is kind of heartbreaking. It

Pastor Joe Liles:

is heartbreaking you get like those wonderful I mistakenly sometimes introduce Jess, my wife, who was here in many different roles, but started off in kid city, and she started off as Miss Jess or Mrs. Nemo. Also right, because she, one day, wore a Nemo costume to one of our popcorn theologies. And so she got the nickname Mrs. Nemo, but I call her Miss Jess. Took it down. I was like, Hey, this is Miss Jess, oh, man, she does not like it. She's like, a picture that was, that was my role, like, 10 years ago. And I'm like, Oh, I'm so sorry. Another

Tom Helmich:

like, what came across my my Facebook memories the other day. Oh, great. A picture of you in skin tight, pink, like cut off sweat shorts and a T shirt and your hair spiked up and died, pink and like glitter on your

Pastor Joe Liles:

skin. Do you want to know what failed experiment that was? Do you remember it was epic? It got your attention. This is where Jess got her name. So she was Nemo, right? She dressed up as Nemo, and I dressed up as a sea and enemy. And here was here was saying it It's hard enough here was, here is how this was supposed to work out and how it didn't work out. So mind you, we're at the storefront. Okay? I'm getting the back room. We've got trunk or treat set up. Trunk or treats. Awesome, right? Something we do every year, it's coming up again this year. It's grown substantially since we first started today. But so I always dress up for it and do something I've done Angry Birds and set up like a whole catapult system. I did a field goal thing. I mean, we've done man swing a bat against a bat, you know, like, I mean, just tons of crazy stuff, right? So I was dressed up. Always have a lot of fun with it. Well, this year, I decided that Jess would be Nemo and I would be a scene enemy, which she makes her home in, right? So it's super fun. We'd walk around together. Be fun. So I just said that so you could hug her. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah, anytime I can touch chess is fantastic, right? So, Oh, give me a hug. And so with I had this idea that if I wore tight pink pants, painted my hair pink, right, and a pink shirt, and then got pink balloons, like the long balloons you make, like dog animals

Tom Helmich:

out of I think I was. One of the ones that got tasked in the back of trying to blow them all up. Yeah,

Pastor Joe Liles:

correct, yeah. So I got 100 of them right, 100 of them, and my goal was to wrap them around my body and have them stick out around my face, right? So I would basically have a belt around me, and they would all stick up around my face. And then you could see my face through the CN enemy. But then I was like a cn enemy creature. The problem is, 100 balloons is not enough. You would think that would be way more than enough that you need popped a couple of them, 100 was not enough. I don't think we were able to blow all them up by the time now we started,

Tom Helmich:

because we didn't have time to we got behind on something with the parking lot.

Pastor Joe Liles:

Oh, something was going on, yeah. And so I ended up spraying myself, having the pink tights, and then, like, 20 balloons. Just walked around these, these balloons, which did not work, because I was basically everything pink, and then some long pink balloons. And by the time mine came up, the balloons were gone. They were gone. And then kids kept on grabbing them because they were excited to see him. So basically they deleted until I had like, three or four balloons. By the night, I just looked like and then they called me Bubble Yum, which I did not appreciate. Like, what are you? And they're like, Are you a piece of gum? I was like, No, well now I am. So that was the see, an enemy to bubbly. I'm year is what that turned out to be failed. I that was a fail. That one, I couldn't recover. Also,

Tom Helmich:

the others have hit pretty good, though they pretty good. That one was rough, but yeah,

Pastor Joe Liles:

Jack Frost hit really well. Calvin helped with the staff on that one. I've done Miss Mr. Not fantastic, Mr. Incredible. Yeah, right, that worked out well with Jess one year. Did his first year the church, first year ever. I went out and did a cardboard boat race. Take that in for a second cardboard boat race, and I dressed up as a enlarged zombie. And, yeah, so, like, pillowcase, Saran wrapped around me, like, open shirt, like, right? That one was a little too scary. That doesn't work. So learned on that one. So great. We'll have a podcast about trunk or treat later on, and we could talk about all the adventures, which is super exciting, but Tom, I did not preach this week. You were up preaching this week, sharing really an incredible way of dear younger me, kind of getting into this high school version of ourselves. And what do we need to hear is wisdom for kids going back to school. And so if you can jump us in, into a wonderful way, but before we do that, we have to sing our jingle, which, Tom. Can I say out loud Yesterday, you were trying to remember the phone number, yeah. And you wouldn't give it to me. I made him sing the jingle. He's

Tom Helmich:

and I got it right. You got it got it right. You got it right. 50 chance it could have

Pastor Joe Liles:

been wrong, yeah. But no, you nailed it. As soon as we got I had to sing the tone, but as soon as I sang the tone, it's like the tone, then it came down. Great. Yeah. So all right, this is the jingle also. Phone number, if you want to call Roseanne. Roseanne, can you just give us how you would answer the phone if they call this number?

Roseann Bowlin:

Thank you for calling the neighborhood church. How can I help you today? My name is Roseanne. This

Pastor Joe Liles:

is not just a neighborhood church phone. It's make a friend phone like if you want a friend, sounds like it, yeah, if you need a friend today, call Roseanne. This is need a friend line. Okay, that's wonderful. All right, here's how it goes. 479-367-2285,

Unknown:

neighborhood, church. Nice. Great.

Pastor Joe Liles:

Okay, we're in. That is the phone number. Give a call to Roseanne. Tom, can you walk us through your message on part two of dear younger me, yeah. I figure first, just to kind of

Tom Helmich:

break the ice a little bit, we talk a little bit and talk a little bit about some of the dumb trends we fell victim to because of peer pressure. Young yes, this was a beautiful moment. I already confessed to my rat tail and parachute pants and tight roll jeans.

Pastor Joe Liles:

So I've only seen you with this haircut, which is, if I can just, kind of, I just want to frame it for people, militaristic in style. Right shaved sides, all at the top, low on the top, a

Tom Helmich:

lot longer than it used to be this. Seriously, this is my, like, long hair. Wow. Haircut.

Pastor Joe Liles:

Okay, so this, I've known you the whole time. I've known you. So when you said rat tail, I took this same image of shaved sides, very I mean, what I would say, half inch on top, quarter inch on top. A little bit three quarter inch. Okay, right, right on top. So pretty much a buzz cut, right with a little bit longer top, and then just a giant rat tail on the bottom of this. Is that what it was? Can you? Oh,

Tom Helmich:

no, this was total, like, I think I was trying to go for like Mel Gibson and lethal weapon. Oh, but he couldn't pull it off. But I did have the wave bangs that came out over one eye and the rat tail. Of course, my dad is in the military, so I got the option to either get a decent haircut. Oh, I eat this or wear a pink ribbon in my hair to school, and I'm like, gotcha, Mom, I need a ride to the barber. Yeah, yeah. And then once you go to this kind of haircut, it's hard to go back. Yeah, it's so easy because, like, if I go more than, like, three weeks without cutting my hair, I sweat all the time. Oh, interesting. Like, it's just, like, my head's hot. It's just not comfortable. Yeah, I do leave it a little longer than I used to, because I'm not worried about the stuff I was worried about before. I haven't had to put on a gas mask in two years, so I leave a little bit on the side. I just take the guard off, yeah, and just run it right down to the skin Grace a little bit on top, because it was just very, you know, very easy maintenance. You know, I used. Hour of soap for everything, including my hair. And it was fine, but now it's like, Okay, I can't have a little bit more relaxed. So this is my long hair. Kind of hippie look nice, leaving about a quarter inch sides and half to three quarter on top. And yeah, as long as I keep it around there, I'm good. You

Roseann Bowlin:

don't do love public servant hippie.

Tom Helmich:

Yeah, exactly. Still kind of a gas mask friendly haircut. But no, I had that longer hair that the bangs that covered would cover one

Pastor Joe Liles:

eye. Before you said wavy bangs. I just want to put that out there.

Tom Helmich:

No, because I got wavy. I got calyx on all four corners of the tile ahead, nice. Okay, and so it was kind of like a cross between bangs. And like, my wife had this, like, almost look like, if you look on the the oh, what's that? Juice comes in a gallon jug of like, cranberry juice, and it's got this, like, wave on the Ocean Spray. Well done. That's kind of like what her bangs were with Aqua net, like I was back then. It's kind of a cross between that and a swirly,

Pastor Joe Liles:

okay, like a little like swirly stick a

Tom Helmich:

kid's head in the toilet. Back in the day, I used to happen to people

Roseann Bowlin:

Tom, I'm sort of picturing a mullet. Was it?

Tom Helmich:

The only thing I've seen a mullet is like, if you imagine a mullet and you cut everything off, but leave about that much in the very middle, in the back, yeah, a pinky size, like a pinky size. How long was it? By three to three inches. Another went down to the collar. I'm sure. Were you not I thought, because I saw somebody else do it, I thought, I'll

Pastor Joe Liles:

try again. Yeah, not a good look. Not a good look. You know, what I love is people don't know that you were a police officer for 20 years, 25 years, 2525 years. When you say that this was my gas mask haircut, without that qualification, I love it so strange. Like, yeah, gas mask haircut. I see most cops have kind of pretty similar haircut. Oh, absolutely. First time you try to put a gas mask on, like, with your hair, oh no. Never again. No, with football helmets. Like, Oh, yeah. All the years I played football, I'm like, first thing I did at the season start, like,

Tom Helmich:

with a gas mask to, you know, you put it on, and the hood comes over the back, and then these straps you wrench back, yeah, and it just, it's this rubber so it sticks your hair sticks to it, and it just winds it up into it. Oh, no, that's gross. And, yeah, so it's just,

Pastor Joe Liles:

so we had the rat tail trend. Were there a couple other trends that you thought were not popular back in the day?

Tom Helmich:

Yeah, I never got into the, like, the dinner plate size, belt buckle, oh yeah, there's a lot of that, uh huh. And then that's when I started, first seeing kind of like, goth coming out. Oh yeah, you know, started becoming a thing, which I didn't really get into because it depends on what your friend group is. I guess that's true, yep. And so there's probably there's probably a whole gaggle of us with rat tails and long hair. It's great, you know, jean jackets. And

Pastor Joe Liles:

now, what year was high school? So give me a high school year for you

Tom Helmich:

see, 92 to 95

Pastor Joe Liles:

okay, 92 to 95 okay, let's, let's. Roseanne, how about your high school? What were trends in your high school, like, oh, decade

Unknown:

earlier. Okay, that's good, yeah. So leg

Pastor Joe Liles:

warmers, leg warmers. Oh, yeah. Oh. Like, the big, like, like, the yoga, like,

Tom Helmich:

videos, yeah, like a like, Jazzercise, yeah, Jazzercise, leg warmers, yeah, okay,

Roseann Bowlin:

yeah. And they weren't called Skinny jeans. I was trying to remember what we called our jeggings. No, no, no, no. That's 12 years later. That's relatively new, but it was the jeans that were tapered to the ankle. I mean, they were tight, yeah, but they were the complete opposite of bell bottoms from the 70s, correct? Yes, yeah. So those and leg warmers, big hair. But I I had big hair anyway, because my hair is real thick,

Tom Helmich:

I figure there's, there's a time, like between yours and mine where, like the wrist, the sweat bands on the wrists and the headbands, sweat bands started to become a big thing, like right between their

Unknown:

MTV, oh yeah, oh yeah. Video, cube, music on it.

Roseann Bowlin:

Real videos. I mean, we would

Pastor Joe Liles:

sit for hours. Seriously, wow. You

Unknown:

know, I

Roseann Bowlin:

had in a dark TV. Tom, you are a

Pastor Joe Liles:

person I no longer understand. You're about to go off this topic, and I do not see you.

Tom Helmich:

DVD when they first came out, it's so dumb, like we'd buy DVDs of music videos that had been on MTV, yeah. And all it was on it was, like, one song, a video, music video from MTV of white snake performing, like one song, and that was it.

Pastor Joe Liles:

And I'm like, what? How many times did you watch it? No, how many times did you watch

Tom Helmich:

it? Only a few. And that kind of got boring, you know, because I've seen it once. I'm like, okay, the music's good. I just kind of listened to it in the background, yeah. And White Snake honestly wasn't that good for that long, yeah? But it was different. And after a while, I'm like, it kind of went out, like, firehouse. Just kind of like, yeah, gone,

Pastor Joe Liles:

yeah. It's great. What else you got? Roseanne, what are some other trends coming

Roseann Bowlin:

back from? Power suits for women, big shoulder pads.

Pastor Joe Liles:

Oh, power suits. Yes, okay, I get that yeah, because

Roseann Bowlin:

that was when Oprah Winfrey and all these women were coming into power and so, yeah, power colors,

Pastor Joe Liles:

nice, yeah. I remember that. Yeah. I remember the guy side, which was like, power ties. Like you could have a power tie, right? I was never a Thai person, but yeah, that's my only relationship to power clothing. Yeah,

Roseann Bowlin:

I think that's about it. Okay, yeah, those the tapered jeans, is what I

Pastor Joe Liles:

Yeah. So I'm gonna fast forward a little bit and bring back bell bottoms, but they were known as baggy jeans. So not just the bell bottoms. We took the bell and brought it all the way to the waist when we called them baggy jeans. Remember Jean COEs, unlike the skater jeans, oh, skater jeans 100% right, where you couldn't find

Roseann Bowlin:

your feet, you wore two sizes too big. So that

Pastor Joe Liles:

was also a trend, where they would hang off

Tom Helmich:

of your body. And this, these were kind of like, imagine the legs of, like a 48 inch waist pant on a 28 inch pant,

Roseann Bowlin:

yeah, I remember seeing it,

Pastor Joe Liles:

yeah, skater shoes, right? Huge, right, fans and all that kind of stuff. But not this, oh yeah, they come back around, huge. So, I mean, I went through jinko face in a really big way. And then I think that was a huge trend. We had the slap bracelet trend. So you're talking a little I remember that, like slap bracelets were huge, and I was coming up, and then, man, just other trends coming back in. I wasn't, I wasn't the cool person coming in to the school. So I wasn't, I wasn't in all the trends, right? But I do remember, like Abercrombie and Fitch, which still still rocking today. I mean, Kaylee was there this weekend shopping for news clothes. But like that brand of Abercrombie was 100% the 90s. Like, if you had Abercrombie clothes, like you were another level. I could only afford to go to Ross. So, like, I got whatever the department store sent to Ross after they were done with it, which was usually if I found a pair of Ginko jeans during when I was picking those up. But I always felt like, as an athlete, when I was coming up through school, that if I wore Ginko jeans, I became lesser in

Unknown:

society, different value of that,

Pastor Joe Liles:

yeah, like there was nothing I could run from, nothing I could run towards. Like it is just kind of shuffle. It's a shuffle. It's a shuffle. And I used to draw. I used to draw all the time, and I would draw all my characters in Jin goes right, because I could just draw the little tips of the toes in a little circle because all the jeans were covering it. And so it was super easy to draw. But yeah, that was our big trend from back in the

Tom Helmich:

mess some brands I've not heard in a while. So the jinkos and the vans, and the vans would come back in and tell you the fans are back Skywalker, it's almost like, like that culture that now are adults and have jobs, ya know. And I remember some of the brands that I don't hear about anymore, like everything was, was the big thing was, guest jeans, oh yeah, yeah, DoorDash, DoorDash. And then Swatch watches, oh

Pastor Joe Liles:

yeah, yeah. Everything, everything has changed now in a huge kind of cycles back around. So, you know, it has, you know what is remained true for all of our generations, for every single one of us and the next generation, Stanley Cups. Every one of our generations had a Stanley Cup. You know, it

Tom Helmich:

feels like, like was working class. Yeah. Now, I wonder, somebody's kids carrying them like you're not talking about this, is there actually anything in there? Are they just carrying it?

Pastor Joe Liles:

Oh, that's a good question. Yeah, no, yeah, whatever Stanley did, well done. Oh, yeah, when they've taken the green cup that everyone knew that had your coffee hammer texture, oh, the hammer tech, everything, right, and then made it just everything that it is today that every kid needs a Stanley, and not just a Stanley that's affordable. They need the$45

Tom Helmich:

now. It's a Bougie expense. It's a Bougie expensive Stanley. And, you know, like the 1015, $20 one from back in the 80s that, I mean, we've still got two of them on our on our show, just as well as they did then

Pastor Joe Liles:

they do, yeah, double wall, insulated, yeah. And the kids don't even know. You know what the sad part is the kids don't know. I mean, that's, I think the important part about a little bit about the deer younger me series too, is that kids don't know that Stanley's word these green hammer texture cups that people brought to the work in class. Yes, they don't know. And you see, like, I go out to vintage markets now, and there's Stanley's are out there. Yeah,

Tom Helmich:

it just shows how marketing works. I mean, they see that, and there's a longing to fit in with the crowd, yeah? And so they, they feel like to fit in, they need to conform to that kind of thing. And, you know, the advertisers they, I mean, they put a lot of money into the psychology how to do it, to get people to want to be drawn into that, yeah, to associate, you know, positive things with that, yeah. And then sometimes you look at it afterwards, you're like, Ah, I feel victim to that. Was I thinking, we have four Stanley's in the house. I have $120

Pastor Joe Liles:

with this. $20 worth of Stanley's sitting in our kitchen right now. I almost bought a Stanley side of the fridge holder for our Stanleys fight. I am two

Tom Helmich:

Stanleys in the house for a total investment is about $40 yeah, from the 80s and 90s. My

Roseann Bowlin:

bonus granddaughter got a Stanley for her birthday, and she screamed. She was so excited. It's

Pastor Joe Liles:

a status symbol. Now, you know what else is the status symbol? Jesus and being a Christian. Tom. How was your message on Sunday? How'd you like that transition?

Tom Helmich:

Well, so I think to get into that, we need to read Proverbs 29 Yeah, let's do it. That's great. And I figure with Roseanne, sultry voice, we have her read chapter 29 verses, 25 And 26 it'll just be, you know, relaxing to listen

Pastor Joe Liles:

to. Yeah, I like that. Suck it in. All right, let us. Let us get prepared. Roseanne, I'm excited for this, because this is the same votes that people are going to make a friend with on the phone. So I just want to take it in for a second. Okay?

Roseann Bowlin:

Proverbs, 2925 and 26 the fear of others lays a snare, but one who trusts in the Lord is secure. Many seek the favor of a ruler, but it is from the Lord that one gets justice.

Tom Helmich:

Awesome. So justice, that word justice, can also mean judgment. Ooh, yeah, so it's judgment. So it's like, who's going to judge you? These are the rulers of the earth, or is it going to be our God in heaven

Pastor Joe Liles:

does, is that the same? Sorry, I'm just gonna is that the same that happens in the Greek New Testament when they talk about judgment and then seeking justice? Right? Are those two words synonymous in Greek? Also, I don't know the Greek because I take judgment and justice differently, but it's interesting, they could be the same word here in the Hebrew

Tom Helmich:

because I think a lot of stuff is different in the modern, you know, with in, you know, modern popular language. And that's why we always have to have new additions, you know, new translations of the Bible. But when you start, I mean, if I start thinking about justice apart from judgment, like, I don't want, like, I don't want like justice in the modern sense, from God, like I don't want what I deserve. I want what God has decided to give me through Jesus instead, because what I deserve is not the better half of that. Right. When we talk about justice, it's usually us wanting somebody else to suffer something because of some perceived wrong against us. Like we want justice we want, almost like revenge, yep. But in this case, justice, you know, is, is this is, this is judgment. And as followers of Jesus, we are judged as righteous, even though we're not, we get to kind of get that free pass. And so I have to look at that in the Greek. That's, that's, that's a good point, yeah, I would think it, I would expect it to be, yeah, but I've been surprised before,

Pastor Joe Liles:

yeah, exactly. Yeah. That's great. So take us through your message a little bit like, what was, why did this verse hit you in your message, right? In order to share some wisdom that you would give to your younger

Tom Helmich:

self? So when we've talked before about about awe, being an you know, fear of God, being in awe, really meaning in awe of God. And then, so then I read in this, in Proverbs, it says, you know, fear of others. And I'm like, Okay, it's like being in awe of others is kind of where I went, but it's a different word that's where. That's where the Greek word of fear in the New Testament, fear of God actually means, kind of being in awe of God, and sometimes in the Old Testament. But this particular Hebrew word for fear literally means trembling, oh, wow, like trembling before others being in it's in a fearful sense, I'm being in fear of other human beings, scared, scared. Yeah, right. You kind of look at it was like scared of judgment of other people, like peer pressure. That's where I kind of

Roseann Bowlin:

equate that to peer pressure. That's the way I looked at it, yeah, yeah. And it was

Tom Helmich:

interesting. And I didn't make this a point, because I don't really know exactly where it goes, but just to throw a little oddity out there, yeah, when it says fear of others, what they translate as others is actually Adam, which is where you get the name Adam, yeah, which means, but not man as a male, as in, like humanity, yeah. God created Adam, the human being. So fear of Adam of humans is a snare, a trap.

Roseann Bowlin:

But then so it's seeking their approval,

Tom Helmich:

their approval or or being in fear of their of their judgment of you, right? Like fearing the judgment of other people, I see that. But then, when it gets to but the the very last verse, when it says one gets justice from God, yeah, it actually has the Hebrew word ish, okay, which means man, it's like woman or female is Isha, and man is each okay. So fear of other humans, you know, is a trap. But men get judgment from God, almost like, it's like the gospel the right or the Proverbs writer is thinking that maybe men struggle with this a little bit more than like, oh, they think this is like, a thing that causes there's an issue for men more, yeah, because it specifically says ish, and we know what women are judged by, everybody's judged by God, but almost, like, and I can see this a little bit, like, in like, male culture, like, yeah, men behave in society a little different, like, you know, we're more worried about respect and how we're viewed as being in a position of power and stuff like that, yeah. Like, maybe even back to ego, ego kind of thing, maybe even three or 4000 years ago, like, dudes were like that then too, maybe, yeah, you know, or it's just a style of writing that doesn't mean that. And I have no idea I'm not a, like, a Hebrew scholar, yep, I just thought that was, that was interesting. Like, the writer this is a little bit more worried about men than women. Like, maybe they're better at this.

Pastor Joe Liles:

And I wouldn't say that women are outside of that judgment from other women, right? If it right, if it were to be that same type of relationship, right? But yeah, I definitely feel that as a man, right, like judgment from other men, judgment from enormous the peer pressure, right? And not maybe even consciously, but subconsciously, like we're just always in a state of competition.

Tom Helmich:

We're always trying to sort each other. Yeah,

Roseann Bowlin:

you shake another man's hand? Do you squeeze hard

Tom Helmich:

everything I've got, she

Pastor Joe Liles:

had so much discovery that you just seen her face,

Tom Helmich:

like a respect thing, like, you know, you don't want to shake a dead respect. You know, it's like having a firm handshake is something about that. Have you ever come

Pastor Joe Liles:

unprepared into a handshake when someone went real hard on it and you didn't expect it? Yeah? Expect

Tom Helmich:

it, mostly, was when I was younger, and I was kind of timid about it, yeah, you know. But you know, the thing

Pastor Joe Liles:

I can't get over with, and this is such an ego thing that I do, and I cannot get over it, because it's just ingrained in me now. So shaking hands, fine, like, shake hands, great. I'll sometimes do the double hand just to kind of, like, where he's you just slap the other side of the hand too. That's fine, you know, just removing barriers, right, whatever that can be. But if someone ever comes up to hit me on the side or pat me on the side, I always flex my arm right. Like, whatever that. Yeah. So like, if they go to, like, tap my side of my arm, right, I can't not, like, flex. And I don't know if it's like, a response, like, Ah, you're gonna hit me. Played football, but like, every time they do it, and so someone, like, every time they do it, and so someone like, real nice will just come to tap me, and I'm like, oh, and I tense up, and I'm like, what is happening? So, yeah, that's just my crazy and I

Tom Helmich:

wonder if this is why, when you get to younger adults, if you look at the cross section population across the church, within certain age strata, like it's almost all women in church, yeah, and men kind of outside like they come back in eventually, right? But women are more likely to be involved in church when they're single than than a man is, yeah, and when doing rounds through nursing homes and stuff, a bunch of women in there, women live longer, right? So more likely to see that, but you'll see them grouped up together and talking to doing stuff, and all the men were like, by themselves in their own room, just sitting there, staring at the wall. Yeah. Staring at the wall. Oh, interesting. It's like, maybe because they're and I don't, I don't fully understand all the psychology of that, but like, there's something there that maybe as guys, we need to work on a little bit. Well, I

Pastor Joe Liles:

mean, it could be a psychology there, or could be a response to all of the judgment coming through all of your life, right, where we can't be in spaces that might provide judgment,

Tom Helmich:

aka church, no longer in a position to be able to be at a perceived need of being like we. We want to value ourselves based on power we can provide, like, strength, you know, strength and authority. And if, and if that's taken away, then sometimes guys get, you know, they get shattered, yeah, you know, then all sudden they're, they don't feel like they have a community group, yeah, you know. And guys crave community, but we resist it like nobody wants to be even when we're inside

Pastor Joe Liles:

of it, we're resisting, yeah, we don't want with anyone, embrace it, even if we haven't been around us. Yeah,

Roseann Bowlin:

I think there's a certain vulnerability to coming to church alone. Yeah, same one. And I think, Well, I think that men and women are different. Male and female are different. We're wired differently, and I think females, women seek community, and males are the protectors of the community. But if they're, if they don't perceive that they have a community, then I think that they it's they show a vulnerability by seeking community, if that makes sense,

Tom Helmich:

yeah? Like pretending like they don't need anything from anybody, right? Yeah, we had

Pastor Joe Liles:

an interesting moment happened. I was with a group of men, and part of our time is a circle of trust, where we share and and one of our guys shared that, you know, he was a young buck, right? So, early, early 20s, right? And we had a group of men that ranged from late 20s all the way to early 50s, right? Mid 50s. And there was about, you know, 1012, of us. And I call him a young buck, right? Because it's just your young but, right? And so this one,

Roseann Bowlin:

he's half your age. Oh, gosh, she said it out

Pastor Joe Liles:

loud, you know what not used to get it, yeah? Tom, no, it still hurts. Still hurts. Roseanne, so, but no, he shared something vulnerable about just not wanting to be there. And, you know, like, things were tough, right? Different things like this, and, you know, he didn't want to wake up, and he couldn't get to the commitment, right? And everything else like that. And, and the guys kind of went around. They're like, we'll commit. You know, they pulled like, the David Goggins of like, well, you just got to invest. You just got to go for it. And that's a young reality, you know, that's not like what we're at and everything else like that. And, and I stopped the group afterwards, and I said, Hold on. I said, Is this how respond to phone? And I stopped the whole group, and I was like, Is this how we respond to vulnerability? And I was like, we just had a person share like, they struggle with commitment, and it's hard for them to get out here. And, and I said, every one of you questioned coming out here this morning. I was like, no doubt that every one of us woke up and went like, and I was like, and yet we had someone finally share that this is how they react. We didn't come out here and propose that we're strong, you know, and that we made it out here, and this is just our commitment. And I was like, No, every one of us struggled to commit to this. And I said, and we had a young buck teaching us how to share it, and we all jumped on him. And I was like, that's not

Tom Helmich:

the real all looking for a position, always jockeying for position of power, like trying to set themselves up in the pack and in the lift on Friday morning group. It comes up a lot that men crave that. I mean, look at, like, a lot of men, and like, in male sports, you know, there's the idea the team, yeah. And I, you know, I didn't realize that I'd found that until I missed. It when I I retired from the SWAT team of having that kind of small tribe, yeah, when I have that group, that working group, a lot of guys are primarily all men and firefighters. You know, you got your firehouse. It's a group, like a tribe, a pack of people that work together. It's that's cross section starting to change a little bit. But men crave that, yeah? And need to have that. And it's kind of hard, the way it is in society, and people look for it, and sometimes they find it. Ideally, they find it in the church. Yeah, and everybody can the women find it in the church. But that's why it's so important to have these groups, like the the small groups, like the lift and the table for the women and the life groups and stuff like that, so that people can can find their subset of the tribe. Because the church gets to the point where at one point, the neighborhood church was that large group all by itself, just that that group and but it gets to a certain size when it doesn't, can't really do that anymore. And so sustainable. It's not sustainable. You got to have community and

Roseann Bowlin:

know each other, break off into packs that way you can have you can you can feel that support

Tom Helmich:

from one another, and get to the point where you can trust being vulnerable with somebody and telling them what you're actually thinking without trying to think about you. About how they're going to hear it and how they're going to judge you because of what they're saying. Yeah, and that comes down to that fear of man, right? Everybody, when they have to have an issue of vulnerability or a problem or something that they're going to think like, how is this going to be received? What are they going to think about it? How's it going to make me look and getting past that is difficult. If you get to the point where you're only worried about God judging us and knowing that God's gonna judge us and that we know the promise we have in that so we can go out boldly in our relationships with other people. But just because you're a Christian doesn't mean you're automatically gonna be this complete different human being and be completely bold and everything. It's something we have to fight all the time, because having that in the back of our head makes us sometimes choose things that we don't agree with in ourselves and cause us dissonance in our own minds about choices we make because we're trying to please other people and their judgment of us rather than what we think is right. And that's a difficult thing, and it's harder for the younger people.

Roseann Bowlin:

You just made the point of this entire um, reading was that I would rather be judged by God on what I do, but but rather than humans out there, but when someone is on a path that is not the way they should go, and it's obvious, but it's not popular, but it's a popular way to go. Maybe I should say then they need correction, because we know that they are a child of God, we need to correct them in a way, in a loving way, that is of God.

Pastor Joe Liles:

Yeah. Well, it's interesting thing. I think about judgment with God too. Um, judgment with God is something that I don't fear, because it's harder for me to submit to God. Like, judgment is something that you know, if you think about being judged by a judge in a courtroom, right, like you're standing before, like there's, a point when you have to give over control of that judgment, right, and you have no more say in what that judgment is. Right, I find it harder to submit, and I have more fear to submitting to God, right, and putting myself in that place in the kingdom on earth that knows that I'm underneath, humbly before God's power, and that I'm still struggling to find my place in there right before I ever get to judgment. Like, if I get to judgment, great, at least I've arrived before God. Like we're working hard, but like to submit, though, and understand that God's will and God's power is what gives growth to this church and what gives growth to people in their relationship with God. And it's not just the work of the church. It's not just the work of a pastor or a Director of Operations, all right? Or when we meet with people like it's everything together. I think that submission to God is a huge part of what is being brought up in this and that was my point in week one, was that you know your final place is, you know your submission to God, right? Helps you understand your place in the kingdom, right? And your place in the kingdom is before God, right, like below God, and we have to submit to that. That's a very important

Tom Helmich:

part. I think the thing that makes it hard is society fights directly against it, not thinking necessarily intentionally. But if we look at proximity of consequences, like we know, being judged by God, submitting to God, is after the end of this life and the next life to come, but what happens at work or at school today and tomorrow is the product of peer approval or disapproval, and so it brings some very real consequences, and that's something that as a society, I think that we can do better. We need to do better in our own cultures, even in the churches and our peer groups about how we respond to people doing things a little different, because we ourselves wind up inadvertently, you know, turning away from people because they do something. You know, this a little different because we fear judgment from the crowd, and then that perpetuates this, this whole idea of society trying to turn people the way society wants them to. Go, you know whether it be right, and remember what it is, and you'll be gender, identity, sexuality. It can be faith. It can be what denomination. It can be, what you believe about this particular thing or that, or just the way you want to dress or talk. But if society disapproves, people are afraid of aligning with that person or accepting them, because they incur that judgment also. And so now it kind of turns into this pack mentality, or where people are afraid to just be them, be themselves. And it actually was going to change the reading for the second point, because I think this will make more sense. It's the reading from John 12, and it's verses 42 and 43 says that Nevertheless, many, even of the authorities, the Jewish authorities believed in him, meaning in Jesus, but because of the Pharisees, they did not confess it. For they for the fear that they would be put out of the synagogue. For they loved human glory more than the glory that comes from God. You know, they they believed in Jesus, but they were afraid to say it, because they're afraid they're going to be kicked out of their peer group, yeah, and so much of that people see, I mean, that's what, what allows bullying and all kinds of things to happen because they see something that they don't agree with, or something they do agree with, and they're afraid to publicly agree with it, because they're afraid of not aligning with public opinion. Yeah. And then, all of a sudden, the thing that's most influential in people's lives is this, this thing of called public opinion, that that changes all the time? Yeah, you know, we see that in every generation, and that winds up having more influence on people than their faith. And I think it's because of the proximity of consequences, and if they don't have a strong faith, a meaningful faith, and a faith group, a tie to, like a small group or a large group, or a group of people in church to keep them steady in that then the most influential part of their life is, is peer pressure. And so I think as a church, we've got to step up to make those church groups and those those faith support groups, to be the most dominant influence in people's lives, so they can resist peer pressure.

Pastor Joe Liles:

Yeah, yep,

Roseann Bowlin:

the resist the flow of pressure from the masses, because they all, you know, that group think. They all tend to think the same way, and they group together because they align their thought process when it may be not what God intends for us.

Tom Helmich:

There's a title of a book, and I like the title. I have no idea if the books any good. So I'm not saying go read it, because not read it yet. I have no idea. But the title is perfect, okay? It says, having the courage to be disliked. Have the courage, you know, the courage to be many great things about the book. Yeah, I've never read it, but that's the thing, is, like, we're so, you know, we, we prefer in here glory, right? Is this, this thing, meaning that that's in this inherent worth or approval we, we're more afraid of approval or disapproval of humanity than we are of God, and partly because, like, well, there's grace and God, right? Because we know God's going to reach back out to us again every day, right? But forgiveness isn't permission, right? But there's still something has allowed society to be have more influence over over us than our than our faith. And I think it's the Church's position to try to counteract that. It's still not easy, and many churches still, you know, fall into trying to lead people into the into the wrong thing, but getting in our own mind, because, to me, a sign of maturity is when you get to the point where you can be around a crowd of your peers that you value your friends and feel comfortable disagreeing right, saying that, no, I don't agree with that, and and get in a position where you stand for something that they disagree with, and having the trust to still be, feel loved and and ultimately, having that knowledge of knowing that I'm standing up for, I think God wants me to stand up for, and I don't care what the masses think. Yeah, and to me, that's like, to me, that's, that's a sign of spiritual maturity and maturity in someone's faith, that they're willing to go against popular opinion to stand up for something

Roseann Bowlin:

well, and we were talking before the podcast about that saying, gotta stand for something, or you'll fall for anything. You'll fall for anything, but sometimes you got to stand alone, and that's not a comfortable place to be. But if that's where God needs you to be, that's where God needs you to be,

Tom Helmich:

yeah, that's how, I mean, this is a little bit, maybe a little bit dark, but like looking back to 911 you know? I mean, I was working as a police officer that morning, when the hijackings happened. Out of all of those hijackings, there was one plane that something was different, the one that was trying to second one heading from the Pentagon, yeah, because in a group like that, one person who's perceived as a threat, everybody's looking at themselves as an individual and for their own and, you know, and their own fear. And in that instance, they stepped out of that and crashed the plane somewhere else. Yeah, Pennsylvania, Pennsylvania, wound up not killing a bunch of other people. It's the same thing in a classroom where one one kid is. Has a dominant personality, and he starts bullying people. It just takes one person to step out outside of the social norm and to stand up for that, and other people start doing it, and then now that person doesn't have any power over them anymore. The bully doesn't have any power anymore. It's just we turn into this flock of sheep, yeah, instead of the sheep dog. And it just takes that courage and that confidence in our faith to stand up and say, No, that's not right. And, you know, I don't care if you disapprove,

Pastor Joe Liles:

aka, is saying that group thing can also be a positive reinforcement, right? If everyone leans into the same reality together,

Tom Helmich:

between group think and consensus like that. To me, that's the the whole point of the the ecclesia, the church, yeah, the gathered body is the church. Gathers together everybody, united in faith, can be a strong force to help pull other people, other people in, whereas group think the title just sounds like people thinking together as a group. But typically, like in the industry of like, of leadership, it's always a negative, because it's meaning the whole group takes on whatever one person thinks, yeah, kind of, kind of mindlessly, but you can, that's the purpose of the church, right? We can come together in faith and draw other people in and stand up for other people that feel like they can't on their own, and give them a peer group to make them feel like they can stand up against society and be who, who they really are, and and oppose that that group think

Roseann Bowlin:

a little bit and lean into those biblical truths.

Pastor Joe Liles:

Roseanne speaking of biblical truths, it's time for your segment. Roseanne notes. What was your takeaway from Tom's message as you sat in the congregation, one of the ecclesia right gathered body, what were some of the notes you took away from his message?

Roseann Bowlin:

Don't be shy. Reach out to don't wait for someone to reach in. Oh, man, that

Pastor Joe Liles:

preaches all day. Yeah, better than what

Unknown:

I did. That's good.

Roseann Bowlin:

Be a living witness of God's truth. Choose to please God rather than people. Faith takes courage, even when it's not popular. Wisdom is standing in God rather than public opinion. God's will is what is best for us.

Pastor Joe Liles:

That's nice. That's really nice. Can you read the God's wisdom one? Again, I think it was the second to last one. Yeah. To

Roseann Bowlin:

last one be a living witness of God's truth. Choose to please God rather than people. Is that the one next one? Oh, the

Tom Helmich:

wisdom is, yes, there's one before that, actually,

Roseann Bowlin:

Okay, I gotta find it again. I was really writing these for me because, oh, faith takes courage, even when it's not popular. Wisdom is standing in God rather than public opinion.

Tom Helmich:

Yeah, business, you know, standing in awe of God rather than awe of human approval. Yeah,

Pastor Joe Liles:

I think that is wisdom. I mean, that's, that's the tension that we live into daily, right, as we really look at and that's why I went back to that, or is it because that's wisdom. It's not knowledge, right? It's, it's an identity that, when we have an identity in Christ, that's our first identity, right? It is not when we lean back into what the role thinks of us, or the position that we have, or the role that we have, or how things go or the work that we've done. It's our identity in Christ, and what does that mean to us at the end of the day in personal relationship with God, it's

Roseann Bowlin:

leaning into that Triune God and knowing that he's with us daily. I think you're

Tom Helmich:

gonna see extreme examples of that, and people like Martin Luther with the here I stand. We see that with Dietrich Bonhoeffer and I'll be standing up against the Nazis. We can see that and the Reverend, Dr Martin Luther King, Jr, you know, we can see that all kinds of people in society that have, because of their faith, been inspired to to and in Word, little stronger than inspired, but like really driven to stand up and say no based on their faith, no matter what society tries

Roseann Bowlin:

to throw 10 bloom kind of Absolutely, yeah.

Pastor Joe Liles:

So this was great, wonderful message, second part of dear younger me. So this is a series where we're doing wisdom all throughout the month of August. We go up a generation now. Now we're going to young adult, young adults, maybe young family, right? We get into that range, right there. You know that good 20s range, that part where you would continue to tell us that the boys are not fully formed yet. 26 brains, not all their brains, not all there yet. The boys not plugged in yet. So and then coming out of college, right? So you get this kind of entry into the workforce and like, what would we tell our younger selves? And honestly, a place where we see a lot of young adults come back to the church once they have family, right? So this is kind of an absent into a comeback moment.

Tom Helmich:

I see it all the time with young dads. Oh, they're like,

Pastor Joe Liles:

I gotta raise my child. Feel the weight of it. Yeah. So they gotta raise this. And so we're gonna be bringing up some of the studies about the generations and where they're at and what we see from the youth coming back in and different things like that. And then also, how do we reach young adults? I think the church is notorious for skipping a generation, right? We have great ministry up through college, most sometimes mainly High School, and then we skip until they have kids again, and then we go back into children's ministry, right? And we had this gap years where there's a there's a lost generation in there that the church is not formed well around

Tom Helmich:

as men, primarily the boys of that generation. That's true, very true, more than the girls. And I think for me, that's part of the reason why I think there's such a strong value in infant baptism, those young adults when they start having families, yeah, because the infants being baptized, but the parents are taking an oath before God to do certain things, to raise them in faith, and raise them in faith in life, and they're making these commitments to the church as a communal aspect that I think is absent in some other denominations that don't do infant baptism. And we, we kind of lose out on that a little bit without it. Yep. Well, it's a

Pastor Joe Liles:

beautiful moment. So if you're interested in a little bit more wisdom as we're coming out of this. And you remember younger self that needed that wisdom. If you know someone who is a younger self, or if this is you, if this is you, yeah, that's better. If you're listening to this podcast right now and

Tom Helmich:

you're like, ooh, for next week, might be some epic cheat codes, yeah, do life better?

Pastor Joe Liles:

There you go. I like it. I like it. And all guys, people said, Amen, amen. You you.

People on this episode

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Pastor Joe Liles

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Pastor Tom Helmich

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Roseann Bowlin

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Tevo Christmann

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