What are Mountaintop Experiences and how do we move beyond distractions...?

This week, the staff at TNC dives into the "I Found Jesus" series with a twist of personal adventure. In this podcast, you get a little bit of everything...Pastor Joe returns from a family reunion in Phoenix, where cousins connected and created new memories; Roseanne hiked five miles at Roaring River; Tom's been reflecting on mountain experiences from his travels in Scotland, New Zealand, and Greece. The scripture exploration is through the Transfiguration and the lens of personal journeys - how mountain top moments, whether literal or spiritual, can transform our understanding of faith. 

Key Discussion Points:

• Biblical exploration of mountain top moments
• Spiritual significance of removing distractions to hear God
• The importance of mountain top experiences as preparation for future ministry
• Interpretation of the Transfiguration narrative
• Personal stories of mountain hiking and spiritual journeys

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome and Introductions
• 3:45 Staff Travel: Phoenix, Roaring River, and Scotland
• 7:30 Series Context: "I Found Jesus"
• 12:15 Matthew 17:1-13 - Biblical Narrative: The Transfiguration
• 20:45 Mountain Top Experiences
• 30:20 Removing daily distractions
• 38:50 Challenges of spiritual growth
• 45:30 Final thoughts on faith and trust

Transcript

Tevo Christmann: 0:00

Such as starting with the chicken.

Pastor Joe Liles: 0:04

Welcome to the TNC podcast. There's that voice right there. Hey the Welcome back to the TNC podcast. This is Pastor Joe Liles in the house. Is that my voice is deeper this morning, though,

Tevo Christmann: 0:15

did you hear how Andrea did it last week? No,

Pastor Joe Liles: 0:17

I did not. It was beautiful.

Tevo Christmann: 0:19

It was beautiful.

Tom Helmich: 0:20

It was it was like, We need to bring her back for that. Oh, this is great. Okay,

Tevo Christmann: 0:23

we might even just clip it. Okay, this is great. Pop it in every time. Yeah, I

Pastor Joe Liles: 0:27

was too busy listening to Tom's message and pulling out his beautiful quotes, right? We definitely

Tom Helmich: 0:31

need to, like, clip it out. So when Joe's not here, we can just, yeah, just set

Pastor Joe Liles: 0:36

it in right now, I do have a little bit of, like, morning voice this morning, like, I can drop an octave real quick and it just sits there. And so I'm like, great, that's just where it's gonna sit. But I think I don't have to add any more bass to my voice. So you don't have to mix anything into my voice this week. It's gonna be great. But hey, we are full staff in for the podcast this morning. And so to my left we have the wonderful newest stat, no. Well, technically, you still are, because you're not on so what is your name and title here at the church?

Roseann Bowlin: 1:08

My name is Roseanne Bowlin, that's great. And my title is Director of Operations.

Pastor Joe Liles: 1:12

That's amazing. We're going to walk through what that all means, not today. And so Tom, can you tell everyone who you are and what your role will be at the neighborhood church come the end of June.

Tom Helmich: 1:23

So Tom, how much the newest baby pastor here

Tevo Christmann: 1:27

neighborhood church? Does that mean you Pastor babies? Oh, that's neither here,

Pastor Joe Liles: 1:32

yeah, that's it. To unpack that, yeah. So now I want to, we're going to talk about the

Tom Helmich: 1:39

29th of June, into June, coming on here as pastor of care and education. So pastoral care, all things education, faith formation, stuff like that, and being sent out to Saint Luke also in support of of that church.

Pastor Joe Liles: 1:54

That's awesome. That's awesome. I love it. And table, can you share who you are and what your roles

Tevo Christmann: 1:57

at the church? Table? Chrisman and I'm director of worship, Director of worship, Director of worship, Director of worship, Director of Music, and worship music and worship of music, of course, BMW is what

Pastor Joe Liles: 2:09

I am. Yeah, that's good. That's great. I love it. I love it. All right, so, Roseanne, you and I, we were gone, right? We were we were gone. We were not together, not together. You were off at a river. Roaring River. Roaring River. Can you explain to the people who are listening to the podcast, what is Roaring River like? Is it a national like that place that people go from all over the US to come and experience, I

Roseann Bowlin: 2:34

believe so it's a little place in Missouri that has a trout farm and so you can fish for trout there. And it's just an amazing place. They have hiking trails,

Pastor Joe Liles: 2:47

nice. And did you go hiking? I did go hiking. How long was your hike?

Roseann Bowlin: 2:53

Well, all together, the two hikes that we went on were about five miles Nice. That was great.

Pastor Joe Liles: 2:59

So good. It was great. And did you go fishing?

Roseann Bowlin: 3:03

I did not fish, okay, all right, that's a choice. Yeah, it was a choice. Have

Pastor Joe Liles: 3:07

you fished before?

Roseann Bowlin: 3:11

I have fished before,

Pastor Joe Liles: 3:13

okay, all right, that's great. I do not enjoy fishing, okay, I can sense that the way you're talking about it catching,

Roseann Bowlin: 3:18

I would

Pastor Joe Liles: 3:20

be all for it. Okay, that's good, that's great. I'd rather go read. Okay, that's good, that's wonderful. Well, you had time with family. I did. That's good, that's good, that's awesome. I was off in Phoenix. We had a family reunion in Phoenix, and so I went over there and hung out for Father's Day. And all the cousins got to meet all the cousins for the first time, and so, and to be honest, the kids, right, became kind of the champions, like Kaylee and Landon the cousins kind of gravitated. I kind of lost uncle status, like the cousins were there and, like, they kind of reigned. And I was like, this is kind of cool. Jess and I were just kind of sitting back, going, Oh, this is like a new generation of, like kids caring for our kids are, you know, 13 and 15 now, and coming up on 14 and 16 this year, and their kids are up, you know, like zero to five, right? So I'm like, This is great. So they're the cool ones. They're the cool ones. It was great. And I knew that the moment one child was coming up to run to give a hug, and ran right by me and ran to give Landon a hug. And I was like, All right, well, this is, this is, I've worked hard for my uncle status, and it's now gone. It's just straight to the kids. So so we were not here, but we got to listen to the message this last week. We're in our series I found Jesus, and we're going through the different places that Jesus really, literally walked. We're talking through the spaces that Jesus occupied as a historical character in Scripture and and that way, we can kind of paint a picture of where Jesus is at, and then really give us some context around what's in Scripture. And I think it's been interesting because each week that I've led, I've asked the church, hey, how many of you know the area that we're talking about? How many of you know the Sea of Galilee? How many of you know the River Jordan and what it looks like and where it's at? And largely, I would say 90 95% are like you. I never really thought, you know, never really thought to go look it up, which I think is a great way to kind of dig deeper into scripture, which is really cool. And so we've continued that story. And I was gone. It was Father's Day, so I thought a great way would be to talk about camping, right? And so we brought up some mountain top experiences. So I think you got a little bit closer, because you were hiking, right? You were doing, literally, what was happening in the text and happening here. But Tom, can you talk us a little bit through about what story you're reading in Scripture and what that meant after so good after we do the

Unknown: 5:33

jungle. Two, a, 1-234-793-6720, 2285, neighborhood.

Pastor Joe Liles: 5:44

Church. You guys are so on. I love it. That's great. Tom, can you walk us through what story we're using and kind of what inspired you? Let's before we even get to your message point. Where did you first think about going in the message as you were reading the scriptures? Just

Tom Helmich: 6:00

take us through that. Yeah? So, I mean, the transfiguration, it's a, it's a mountaintop moment on this, this unknown, unknown mountain. And so in thinking about mountaintop moments and camping, I've never camped out on a mountaintop, because when you get there it's cold, Yes, true. It's winter. Yeah, it's Rocky, and it's like, looks much nicer down there at the bottom. Yeah. So it's worth going, worth going up. I've been able to be at a few mountain tops. I got to climb Ben Nevis and highest point in the British Isles in Scotland, right back in the late, mid, late 90s,

Pastor Joe Liles: 6:29

that time you're a planner and prepare. So how long did it take you to plan for that trip, to hike that mountain? About a year. About a year. Dang, wow.

Tom Helmich: 6:36

Okay, alright, how I roll? I'm working on my next something that's about it 14 months

Pastor Joe Liles: 6:40

out. Okay, great. Okay, I love that. That's great.

Tom Helmich: 6:43

But then I got to do another one again in New Zealand, actually. Well, first we did Hawaii, and we got to go, we're on Amy and I on our honeymoon on the island of Kauai, and it's kind of mountainous, yeah, like there's a lot of deep valleys, and we've got to one overlook, which is neat, because the air just blows through so much cool. And we looked down, saw this little thing, and we realized that little thing wasn't a bird, that was an airplane. Oh, wow. You know, taking tourists through the through the valley, which is just kind of neat, because it makes everything else feel so small. And then got to climb a mountain New Zealand. And my dad, my aunt, got above cellphone service above the clouds. So we're looking down at clouds, and then it's weird to see the top of

Tevo Christmann: 7:21

clouds. Yeah, that's awesome. That's so cool. Yeah, yeah, looking at the top of a cloud. I didn't even know that that was have you experienced

Pastor Joe Liles: 7:32

that before? No, oh, man, you got to come to Guatemala with us. Always wanted it cloud. Yeah? So in Guatemala, we do the same thing right up a volcano, and if the clouds are great that day, we'll get above the clouds and breathe. Oh, yeah, absolutely, there's air. Absolutely, yeah, the highest

Tom Helmich: 7:48

altitude wise ever been is about 14,000 feet, okay? And walking across a parking lot, I was winded, right? You gotta kind of get used to it. But you can get a lot of those type of experiences without getting that that high, eight or 9000 feet, you're going to start feeling a difference. But a lot of it, you know, that isn't, isn't an issue. And then the last one, the most recent one, was in January, and I show some pictures from that. Yeah, it was great in Greece, Kalam Bucha, Greece, also known as Meteora, Greece. It was

Pastor Joe Liles: 8:15

a neat point that you explained what Meteor means, right? It's where we get Meteor Yeah, meteor shower,

Tom Helmich: 8:19

because it means, like, lofty or suspended in the sky, and so you're and they built all these eastern, Orthodox monasteries on these really high precipices, which is really cool, because you could see things coming. You're so far above the rest of the world, and I could see wanting to camp out there, yeah? But even though the disciples said, I can build tents, and Jesus like, Nah, let's go back down.

Pastor Joe Liles: 8:38

Yeah? This is, this is great. So this is the story of the Transfiguration. Yep, right. What you're talking about is that Jesus coming up to this mountaintop, bringing some disciples with him, and then what happens on the mountaintop, and so kind of relating that to your own mountaintop experiences also. So yeah, let's dig into scripture, and then kind of open that up so people can hear this story, and then we can kind of unpack some of the points that you went through

Tom Helmich: 8:57

on Sunday. So we're Matthew 17, and we're going to read a little farther. We did on Sunday, actually, because it's relevant chapter 17, verses one through 13. So Rosanna, if you'll start us off, verses one through three.

Roseann Bowlin: 9:10

Sure. Six days later, Jesus took with Him Peter and James and his brother John, and led them up a high mountain by themselves, and he was transfigured before them, and His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became dazzling white. Suddenly, there appeared to them, Moses and Elijah talking with him.

Pastor Joe Liles: 9:30

Then Peter said to Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish. I will make three dwellings here, one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah. And while he was still speaking, suddenly a bright cloud overshadowed them, and from the cloud, a voice said, This is my son, the beloved, and with him, I'm well pleased listen to him. When the disciples heard this, they fell to the ground and were overcome by fear. I. God,

Tom Helmich: 10:01

but Jesus came and touched them, saying, Get up and do not be afraid. And when they looked up, they saw no one except Jesus Himself, alone. As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus ordered them tell no one about the vision until after the Son of Man has been raised from the dead, and

Tevo Christmann: 10:21

the disciples asked him, Why, then, do the scribes say that Elijah must come first? He replied, Elijah is indeed coming and will restore all things. But I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but they did to him whatever they pleased. So also the son of man is about to suffer at their hands. Then the disciples understood he was speaking to them about John the Baptist.

Pastor Joe Liles: 10:45

So Tom take us through, like, what were your thoughts breaking down this text? Like, how did you look at it initially? And then what points initially jumped out at you to be like, Okay, this is where I want to take the message for this last Sunday.

Tom Helmich: 10:56

The first was, was this encounter with the vision of seeing Moses and Elijah there. Okay, like, of all the people, why? Like, why Moses and Elijah? And I think it's because Moses and Elijah are critical people in the story of Judaism and in that culture, in that religion and that faith. I mean, the Old Testament figures that are really symbolic of the faith, is Moses and Elijah. Moses representing the law, the law of Moses, you know, one of the ways of describing the Old Testament, law, and the one who went up on Mount Sinai to receive the 10 Commandments and bring them down to the people below twice, because he shattered the first set and had to go redo it. So I had to go, yeah, all people are familiar with that story. But it's brought the law, and we know that Jesus has come to fulfill the law, and the other person, Elijah, who is probably next to Isaiah, one of the most important prophets, if not the most important prophet, who is said, who's said to be to come again before the Messiah. So this is not just a prophet that was important in the faith. It because of what had happened before, but because they were expecting Isaiah to come again. And so people were thinking, mean Elijah to come again, Elijah looking back to Moses's law, the law God gave to Moses, looking at Elijah, and looking for Elijah to come again. But now they're presented with those two figures, and here with Jesus. And this, this statement that this is my son with whom I'm well pleased. Listen to him, because that clarifies the authority of what are they supposed to do as followers of God, because they have the law, they have the prophets. And now here's here's Jesus, what you know, what are they supposed to do? And it shows that authority rests in Jesus. They're supposed to listen to what he's saying and follow him.

Pastor Joe Liles: 12:40

And I really, like, I mean, where you're taking in your message, right? And talking about the law, and you're talking about the prophets, right? We really have this commandments in prophecy, right? So the law was represented in the Law of Moses, which was the 10 Commandments, right? And then you have prophecy, and it's interesting, because Jesus spoke about both those in his ministry, right? That I came to I am the fulfillment of prophecy, right? So you get the prophet, Elijah, speaking about what was to come, right, and what's happening. And then you get Jesus saying, Hey, I'm fulfilled here. And then you get Moses, who's the 10 Commandments, and Jesus saying, I am a new commandment, right? And I give you a new commandment. And so you get Jesus fulfilling, right? What's happening with Moses and Elijah in here, which is, it's almost becomes this kind of really special moment on the mountaintop of seeing that the transfiguration is not just Jesus, but it's almost the transfiguration of how God's relationship to God's people has changed. It was through Moses, it was through prophecy, and then you had this period of silence, and now it's through Jesus, right? And there's almost, and I would love that we, if we would have this conversation, like, it's like, Oh, they're here, great, but we get nothing from it, right? That's it. Like, it's like, they're whispering in the corner, and you can see it. You're like, I think that's Moses. I think that's election, but I don't know what they're talking about, right? And

Tom Helmich: 13:50

that's what we're left with, right? You want to go talk to him. Like, these are the people, yeah, go talk to but Jesus is here, and God's saying, Listen, you know, listen, listen to him. And we heard some of that in the his baptism. You know, when he's like, I should be baptized by you, and he's let us fulfill all righteousness, yeah, to fulfill the things that were set out in prophecy. And then later on, you know, when Jesus was asked about the the most important commandment You know, Love the Lord your God with basically everything you have in our and then the others like it, love your neighbor as your as yourself. And on these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Yeah. So this thing that Jesus is telling us to do, the message of Jesus in the world, is in fulfillment of all of the law and the prophets. Everything in the Old Testament was building up to this and and this fulfills all of that. And the Old Testament is worthy of reading. We definitely should, because that lets us know how we got to where we are. Oh, absolutely. But all that is we shouldn't cast throw it out. It's not abolished, but it's been fulfilled. And how we're supposed to move forward is in following Jesus well,

Pastor Joe Liles: 14:50

and there's history here. I mean, they camped out on Mount Sinai when Moses was receiving the 10 Commandments. They camped out at the bottom, and then they made idols, right? And like, like, so you had this moment where, like, hey. Let's camp out. And you're, like, been here, like, we've done, like, there's a huge historical narrative that happens in this text that's really not a transfer of power, but it's this beginning of saying, okay, here is the New Testament. Like, here's the the ministry of Jesus Christ, moving forward, right? And it doesn't abolish the law, right? It doesn't remove that. It doesn't remove props. It fulfills it, right, in a really neat way. And I loved because I think as we're reading this and just glancing at it, we could glance over that real quick, right? And just say, Oh yeah, there's people there. We're really concerned about the disciples in the New Testament, so we move past it. I think concentrating there, like you did on Sunday was really important for the people, right? So that we can see. And I love that you said, like, we have no

Tom Helmich: 15:38

idea where the mountain that otherwise we might try to, you know, make pilgrimages to it, or something like that. I think it's probably, you know, a good thing that we don't know where it is because we focus too much on the mountain

Tevo Christmann: 15:48

instead of Revelation. Yeah, is it far fetched that it could be Sinai?

Tom Helmich: 15:52

Yeah, because where Sinai is more like in along Egypt, okay? And so in the narrative leading up to this, where Jesus is and where he's walking, it's probably around the Sea of Galilee area. So some have suggested it could be Mount Horeb. But there's like three mountains in that area that it could be, and we just don't know which one, just based based on what happened immediately before this, it would have been walking distance within, probably within the six days, six days later, so within six days walk of the shore of Galilee, and it would be weeks to get, yeah, you know, because remember when Moses went at Mount Sinai, they were in fleeing Egypt, and so that's how, right, how they got to there. So the second point, I think, actually, I think, is the one that's the biggest for application for us today. Okay, you know, Jesus led the disciples up the mountain. And initially, I used to always think, well, he's leading them to a place that's seen as closer to God, because another name that we read from from the Book of Kings, about Elijah, is the often known as the mount of God. Mount Sinai being known the mountain of God, but this is a different mountain, right? But Jesus is leading him up this mountain. And I don't think it's to lead them closer to the mountain, or or closer to God of the mountain, but to lead them away from everything else. Mm, hmm, for this revelation, you know, he's pulling them away from all the distractions and all the people and all the other things going on. Because when we look at Mountain Top moments, we know we can't climb. I mean, that's the Tower of Babel, right? We can't build anything to get up closer to God, because God's not in orbit. You know, we did the astronauts would have been, then the highest Grace spirited leaders then, right? God's not in a physical place like that that we can climb up to or or try to achieve something to be closer to. I really think that the mountain top is just because it's farthest away from the base, yeah, and farthest away from the other things, and so farther away from the distractions that are going on, and we can achieve those mountain top moments, I think, and experience those on close to sea level simply by being able to find a space and a way to put all those distractions away to where we're just left with ourselves and to listen to God's voice or to try to listen for it. Yeah, so it's about distance from the other things.

Pastor Joe Liles: 18:01

So what if you're asking that question, is application in our lives? Right? I think it's important question for each of us to answer then, right? Like, what are the things that we distance ourselves? Right, when we go to the mountaintop, like, what are the things? And I think it's a Baptist baptism language, right, that we go through, right? It's this renouncing of the things that draw us away from God. We love to say that we seek after God. We love to say that we're going to do these things for God. And for God, but there are often times, and I think even in Lutheran kind of denomination, I was just thinking about this this morning in another context, but I was like, we don't talk about the enemy a lot. We don't talk like, I was talking with people this last weekend, their enemy this and enemy that. I was like, Whoa, dang. And I was I went to a church in the Phoenix Valley that was talking about the enemy, and I was like, whoo, man. Like, I haven't heard enemy language a long time, you know? And I was like, dang, but they're all over it, right? The enemy this and the enemy. Then I was like, Okay, it's like, alright. And I was like, man, we don't talk about that, but it's not that. It's not present, right? The things that remove us from God, right? And so, yeah, just kind of open it up to people here, like, what are the things that we face as distractions? What are the things that we face as enemies, or that draw us away from God, that maybe we need to get away from to go to the mountaintop. And do you think maybe this question to you before that? Sorry, to double up my questions. I know what I just did, but do you think we have to remove those before we get to the mountain in order to go up the mountain with God? Or do you think we can remove those when we get to the mountain,

Tom Helmich: 19:19

like proverbial mountain? I don't, I don't know if the timing necessarily matters. I think that that if you're going to go be present to have a conversation with somebody, Mm, hmm, like when you and I have a meeting, or anybody has a meeting, somebody, you pick a place that you can hear each other talk, yeah, where you can have the conversation. You're not going to have a meeting with somebody to discuss an important topic at a concert venue with a bunch of music going on, this is true. You got to have a place where you have some some peace, some space, a place and a space that you can have time and peace to be able to listen. So I think to be able to discern the voice isn't about the mountain top. You know, the experience comes from having that, that piece, to be able to hear that. And so I think it's having a. Place and space and time that we just put all the distractions aside so that we can just be present. Yeah, yeah, making ourselves available. We're always available to God. We can't take ourselves away from that, but just that, we're honoring a time and a space to be present for prayer and to be able to listen for the Whisper or whatever, you know, whatever word or voice we get from God or feeling that would be difficult, difficult to have with all the distractions. Like, I think if you're going to try to sit there and pray, having the TV on and the radio on your cell phone and a notification going off on your watch, it's just going to be be maddening, but having a place that as an act of worship, you can just set everything else out, yeah, like your cell phone in the other room, no notifications on your watch, and just have a space where you can just go and nothing else matters or exists at that time, except for you being present with God. This is

Pastor Joe Liles: 20:50

why you love having an office. Oh, yeah. This is a Yeah, big partner,

Tom Helmich: 20:55

you know, I power my phone off, yeah, yeah, just shut it off. You know, to have that kind of space, yeah? They can be quiet and peaceful, where you can sit and read and listen and discern and have a place set aside for that, for that purpose, that you that you can do that, that without, you know, disruptions and interruptions. So, so

Pastor Joe Liles: 21:14

what are some of the distractions we're all facing that are keeping us back from hearing God's voice?

Tevo Christmann: 21:21

Sorry, I'm scrolling my phone over here.

Pastor Joe Liles: 21:26

Can you repeat that, please? Can you say that one more time? Yeah.

Tevo Christmann: 21:30

I mean, we've talked about distractions a lot, yeah, phones and stuff like that is a common a common distraction. I think the mountain is such a picture in Scripture, because you you don't slide up a mountain, you know, like you can't, you can't accidentally find yourself at the top of the mountain. It's not convenient. It's not convenient, right? Like it's the gravity, like life is an escalator going down, right? Like it's gravity is pushing us back down. And so there's like, you don't get to the top of the mountain without really intending to get there. Yeah. And there's something like, you know, there's, there's two words for, for worship in the in the Bible, in the Greek, right there. One is, I can't pretend to be able to pronounce it, but one, one means, like, prayer, you know, pros. Pro something, you know, where is an intentional, active, aware moment of worship, yeah, where you are focused on worship. But then there's also another one that's often translated as service, last Travis, something I can't remember how to pronounce it, but that's that means your worship is built into everything that you do. Yeah? You know, there's that, there's that book called The liturgy of the ordinary, oh, yeah, where you see every aspect of what you do, which I'm I've heard as a new parent, I've heard a lot of parents really clinging to that notion of worship. Because, you know, caring for kids can become menial sometimes, and you want to, you would love to read a book, you know, you would love to do other you can't. You're just sitting there carrying freaking, watching the time fly. And I've, like, I've been learning to just accept the hour that I'm stuck holding baby because there's nothing else I can do. Yeah, and just accept that, not as watching my time fly, but as an opportunity for prayer. Opportunity for prayer. This is opportunity for worship, for embracing the ordinary. So there is, there is this, this opportunity to see everything we do as, I mean, Paul says, Present your bodies as living sacrifices, right? So that means it's the era, you know, sacrifices used to be killed. We're not being killed, but we're still a sacrifice. So a walking, talking, thinking, working, doing, active sacrifice, still a sacrifice. And it's also says, you know, take every one of your thoughts captive. And so this is an exercise. You know, I mentioned on Sunday too that, you know that we are, we're worshiping creatures at all times we are worshiping right like every we're at every second we are worshiping something. And one definition of sin that I thought was interesting is for temporarily, when, when sin takes hold of our of our mind or heart, our worship changes direction, you know. And it is the act of repentance to change our worship back, you know. And so there's this, this ongoing effort of taking every thought captive that said. There is also the intentional up a mountain, necessity or desirability of having dedicated time. And I think God's made it clear how much he loves those times. Yeah, just through scripture, because he's chosen to you. So in Moses life, the most, the most defining moment in Moses life is the the handing, or the handing off of the tablets, right of the law, giving, the giving of the law. But also, the burning bush wasn't too different, you know, with with Moses and with Elijah, it was also away, far away, in in a cave in a mountain somewhere on Mount Sinai on mountain. It was had a different name, but it's the same mountain, yeah. And so it seems, it seems really clear that God continually calls us, not only it definitely calls us to investing all of our activity with worship, but he's also calling us to investing our mind entirely in worship periodically, you know? So that's which distractions do we need to get away from all of them. You know, anything that might possibly distract you and me, and it's like, no, it's not like I do perfectly at it, or even very well, yeah, but, you know, it's, it's a convicting

Tom Helmich: 26:03

thought. I think that's the effort to climb a mountain is, is, is a parallel to the effort it takes to actually push these distractions away from, really, is, yeah, you know, because you have to be intentional. Yeah, about it, because there's so much about society that is geared and a lot of psychological study goes into it to be able to get our attention to something else, yeah? And you have to find that with the energy that it would take to climb a mountain, yeah, to have those times, and I don't think you should try to fight to stay there, but to be have the ability, the fitness level, mentally and discipline, the discipline to be able to get there, to set that time aside for God, yeah,

Roseann Bowlin: 26:40

well, I think about retreats that I've been on and those mountain top experiences. So I've been to retreats where you can't have a watch, you can't have a phone, there's no connection to the outside world. And that's a mountain top experience. You experience God, you experience relationship with other people in the group, but then so you have this mountain top experience, and it's a wonderful experience. What do you do with it after that? I mean, and the just distractions are just that. I mean, it could be it could be family. It could be your phone, it could be your job, it could be anything that takes your thoughts, your heart, away from communicating and serving. God, I think

Tom Helmich: 27:37

one of the big ones right now is politics and world events. Oh, my gosh. Oh yeah. You know, the news media are a for profit institution, and they can put up that bad news, that scary stuff all the time to make us constantly turn back to them for a sense of security, want to know what's going on, and being able to turn that off. Yeah, you know, is difficult also, but yeah, I mean, that's a benefit. The beauty of a retreat you know, going into it, you're going to turn that stuff off and focus on something else, right?

Roseann Bowlin: 28:06

So I think those are beautiful experiences, but it's just like anything else. If you have this experience and you put it on the shelf and go, Well, that was fun, but you don't do anything with it. You don't grow into that experience. I mean, how awesome would it be to go up a mountain and see Jesus and Elijah and Moses? I mean, I would be coming down from that mountain a little bit changed. Mm,

Pastor Joe Liles: 28:35

hmm, which is a great segue into the third point, unless, well, yeah, I wanted to share something from my experiences last week on the mountain, right? So I was with Kaylee on the mountain, and I think there's something important here. I was reading back in this first verse, right? Six days later, Jesus took with Him Peter and James, right? So this is take language, right? So now you have a calling in the disciples, right, you know. And so he called them off the seashore. Now he took them, but it's very interesting, because right away and says, and with brother, and with his brother, John, and led them up a high mountain. So you have this take and then lead, and then by themselves. So you have this really interesting language happening right away in the first text. And there's almost as taking says, We have no choice in this matter. Like you're about to go up a mountain, right, leading them says, hey, when we get to the mountain, you have a choice. I'm going to take you there, but you have a choice once you get there. Like to follow right. And the text right before this is the cross and self denial, which is, take up your cross and follow me right? It's this, Hey, if you're going to choose this, choose it, but then follow me right. The take up the cross is first. And so I think there's a choice in getting to the mountain right. And it's kind of shared from last week. Haley and I signed up for a race. I wouldn't have run the mountain had we not signed up for this race. I don't typically go out and be like, I'm gonna run a mountain. This is exciting, right? I have to sign up for race, and then I have to question it all week long before I get there, and then realize I paid money for it. And so it's almost like it takes me there, and then I have to make a choice once I get there, to say, Okay, I'm gonna go run this race. And and the race was eight miles, and Kaylee. It's her longest run ever in the dark, because we run a night race, and because it's Arizona, because it's Arizona, absolutely three degrees. And the first five miles was up the mountain. Five miles legit, two to four to 5% grade, right? So you're just trotting up for five miles. And two miles in, Kaylee goes, Hey, I got, I got a hot spot, right? And what that means is that, you know, in her shoes, she's forming a blister, right? And basically you can't get rid of it because you're just, you keep on grinding on the trails, and it just keeps on, and without an aid station, you're not getting to it right? And so I said, Hey, you're just gonna have to run through it. Like, this is part of the trail, you know, like part of the trail is getting the hot spot. Well, we have five miles up. She has three more miles to go, right? And she's like, Hey, I'm getting a hot spot. I'm spot on my other foot. I was like, well, this can it's gonna suck real bad. It's like, it's not gonna be good and so, but I said, Hey, look. I said, just so you know, like the reward is when we get to the top, because we have three miles down that we'll just be having fun, right? We'll just be gone. And I thought about that a lot with this text, right? Like, part of it is that I read a couple things this week that the reward is not in the mountain. All the work happens before the mountain, right? The experience of God on the mountain is not the moment of all the work and all the experience. All at the same time you've done all the work, you've come to Scripture, you've come to God, you're trying to renounce the things that draw you away, like the work that's going into the mountain has had, there's no work being done on the mountain right now. Like, if you look into this text, the disciples aren't doing something amazing on the mountain. They walked up the mountain. They experienced God. They come down the mountain. Like, that's it, right? And so there's this moment where, like, trusting God, picking up your crosses there. But then I think when we got to the top of the mountain, here's a quick part, we immediately start running down the mountain. At this aid station, we have cold watermelon, right? Kaylee got some glitter on her face. They had, like, this glow in the dark glitter. So she got glittered up. I got glittered up. It's a thing. So it was great. We got glitter. It was good. We had good cold water, cold like, like Scratch, which is, like a that's basically an electrolyte drink. And we just eat. I had a peanut butter and jelly sandwich on the mountain. So good, close to Jesus, right. Here we go. And say, Kelly, this is it. This is what we've earned five miles in, right? We're basically an hour into the run, right? We've been running straight for an hour, and I said we're gonna go downhill. The downhill was a technical downhill, which means that it was over like boulders and rocks prone to injury. So look, we could not run it. We basically it slowed us down trying to go downhill, and we had to work almost even harder to go downhill than we didn't have to go uphill because of all the technical in the dark. And I think that there's a good metaphor in here for the mountain. We assume that going up the mountains the hard part, we assume that we meet Jesus at the top, and great, we're going to walk off the mountain. And it's beautiful. I just want to say that, like, once you meet Jesus, it's not easy downhill, like it just doesn't exist, like it's it's more so, like, they experience this amazing thing. And Jesus says, don't tell anyone. Like, you got to hold this. You're meant to carry this forward in ministry now, like, you can't use this as the easy out that this is how ministry works. You have to carry this with you, and your testimony of an experience of God is going to be your ministry going forward. And I don't think it's easier going down. I think the hard work begins, right? Like you get up there and you walk it, and then the hard work begins going on. Definitely some excitement there.

Roseann Bowlin: 33:16

Yes, I was just going to share the point that for me on my hikes, going up was like questioning every life choice I ever made, but coming down was so much harder, yeah, because the gravel was slippery. I mean, it had rained, so there was mud and it was slippery, and so coming down was a lot harder. And by the time I got down, my legs were jello, yeah, lime yellow. But the other point I don't want to gloss over, is that Jesus, that Peter, wanted to serve Jesus. He wanted to build tents, yeah? So he was eager to serve. That's an interesting take. He just didn't know how

Tom Helmich: 34:04

right, he's like what you know, and part of the culture, they want to build a monument to what's going on, you know, up here. But it's pretty clear that up there isn't, you know, isn't the point. Which gets us to the third point, that the mountain top moments are preparation for something off the mountain. Yeah, you know, down below the a lot of people think about mountain top moments as it being an achievement, like I've worked hard to get here. I pushed through this thing that other people can't do, and I get to the pinnacle of success. But then, if that's your mountain top moment, then that's kind of a self serving kind of thing. And the real mountain top moment that we're talking about in this is about Revelation. It's about putting the other things aside so that God can reveal Himself to us, yeah, and reveal things. And in this the the transfiguration wasn't a, I mean, it's about Jesus, but it wasn't for Jesus, because Jesus was that person they saw the whole time. It was revealed to the disciples so they could do something with it when they got off the mountain. That's the heart. Part hit when they hit the ground, right because now they have to go out into a society that's not ready to accept that message, and they have to experience the death, the threats, the fear, the suffering, all these things, and then continue in that with what, what they got on the mountain top, you know, out out into the world. But that, that's the important thing to know that, like that, it's not about an achievement like that. You you push all the distractions aside so you can hear God's voice. I'm like, oh, you know, I finished the race. I'm good, no, because, like, to your point, it's, it's a revelation for you to do something with off the mountain. So what do you know now? What do you do with that? Otherwise, there's no point of, of having that. It's like, it's like, signing up for the race and training for it and then never running it. Yeah, it's horrible, which, after sounding I'll be like, Oh yeah, that sounds like it's going to suck. I'm going to not do that. Yeah, right. But it's, it's, it's wasting what you've what you've got, what you've been what you've been given, to not go down off the mountain with it, or out of that space, like we when you put all the distractions aside, so we can hear God's voice, and we feel like suddenly we've got this, this relationship where we can we've gotten to the place of discipline where we can push everything else aside and not worry about our phone and have a quiet space to sit there and read God's word and to contemplate what it means for us, and to pray and To hear something in response. That's just the beginning, because now they've we've been called out into something in the world with that, in how we live and how we raise our children, and how we interact with people, and how we live as a witness, as a, as a as a living sacrifice in the world. You know, we have to do that with it. We can't just stay in that

Roseann Bowlin: 36:39

moment. Yeah, you have this mountain top experience, no distractions. You've heard from God, and you get down off the mountain very carefully. But God wants us to go out and represent He wants us to be there.

Tom Helmich: 36:58

And I think it's important that we line out to that Moses was called up the mountain by God. Elijah was called out to go where he went to experience God in the sign where Elijah experienced God in the silence Jesus led the disciples up the mountain. It wasn't about what they were doing, it's what they're being led into. And then something revealed to them each time. Moses was called up the mountain, and then the law revealed to him. Elijah was led up the mountain and told when to go out to hear God's voice in the silence and to get his direction. The disciples were led up the mountain by Jesus, and then something revealed to them for something to to use off the mountain. Which leads into, actually, a fourth point that I didn't put on the on the email, which is the gospel message of it, which is that the good news is that we don't have to rely on achieving these mountain top moments, either on a literal mountain or just in a space, in a quiet space, to do this, because God has come to us. You know, God has come to us in the form of Jesus Christ to be able to lead us to those spaces. Because on our own, we won't. We'll get lost before we make it up the mountain, or we won't. We won't try, but God has come to us so that we we can have that and be inspired by Scripture and be led in that word and in those testimonies to be able to go, go up that mountain and have that experience. I

Pastor Joe Liles: 38:17

think there's an interesting narrative here, in this identity of Elijah and Moses, right, being represented here, and the disciples saying, Hey, this is great. This is what we expected. They always said, These people would come back, right? But they're living into this with Jesus. They're living into this old reality, right? Wanted to happen their way well, and I think that's an important narrative, right? In even in the midst of having Jesus in our life, we still yearn for the things that we know and understand, even if they seem like they're faithful. But there's still something that we need to transform from. We need to transfigure from. And I think there's a narrative of here when Jesus says, Hey, don't tell anyone, because the disciples are still going, Hey, Elijah. Great. Like, who was it? When did it happen? And what's going on? Like we can plant this, and they're going, this is the old narrative still, and I

Tom Helmich: 39:06

think that's they needed to hear that to see that, because they were expecting Elijah to come first, and God showed them on the mountain, Elijah, yeah, and then Jesus there with him, yeah. So it helped. You know, God comes to us sometimes with what we need to be able to understand things. Mm, hmm, because we're called for faith, not understanding. And so sometimes we put too much emphasis in the academic I do, I know, but it still shows that God came to them to reveal to them what they needed, what they needed to

Pastor Joe Liles: 39:33

see, what I wonder, too. If it's not that we need to

Tom Helmich: 39:38

renounce the things that draw us away from God, right? So I'm taking your point. I'm not renouncing well, correct? But put distance. Well, distance is great, because it's about who is, about where we put our focus. Yeah, it's about what's the most important thing in our life, and what we're what we're focusing on at that time, it's like sitting at a table having a conversation with somebody, and you're going, Yeah, and texting while they're talking, oh, man, brutal. You know, it's about where we're, where we're giving. Our attention, yep,

Pastor Joe Liles: 40:01

I wonder, though, if there's an extension from this into how we have faith in Jesus Christ, and this might be a far draw, but I believe the disciples are pulling forward and like, hey, this was the faith that you started from. This was your faith in infancy, almost in relationship to me, is that you still had the 10 Commandments, you still had the prophecies, right? And now that I fulfill this, I need you to move from that into more spiritual maturity. I

Tom Helmich: 40:27

think that's definitely, I mean, that's the in seminary that talk about the the law being the babysitter. Yeah, that's the babysitter until and you'll talk to wait and you know what? Well, that

Pastor Joe Liles: 40:37

brought we have the baby pastor. I mean, so baby pastor, babysitter. I think this is all working out. Yeah, it's great for the baby pastor

Tom Helmich: 40:45

in seminary was being the babysitter until, until the coming of the Son of man, yeah, of the Christ, yeah.

Tevo Christmann: 40:54

I think the point that Moses was called up to there's encounters with God come in in various many ways, right? And we need to be just wary of sometimes we talk about the the disciplines and the things that we are supposed to do, as though we can fashion or manufacture for ourselves the faith with which to do them. And that's just not the case that has been given to us. It is given to us. And Moses encounters the burning bush on a walk in the desert, you know. And just it was curiosity that drew him to the burning bush, you know. Then he's called to Mount Sinai. Elijah is running away from Jezebel, and in whatever King was in place there, and he was, he was exhausted, and he was just running away. And there he found God, and the Jesus led the disciples up the mountain. And there's, there's, there's a sense in which, like, we don't manufacture these experiences. They kind of happen as we sort of go, Yeah, you know, and, but I think it's very true that coming down the mountaintop is the hard part. Yeah, you know, sometimes you seek the mountain because you're seeking respite, and God does meet us there sometimes, like he met Elijah, sometimes we didn't know we were supposed to be going up a mountain this afternoon, but that's where we ended up, because life or something, and off we go. You know, we're spending time with God all of a sudden, and that's something's happening. I mean, I went through, I think Tom's point that these experiences prepare you for what's next is very, is very key. The like, sometimes, if you're a new Christian, you're going through an intense season of discovering new things, you know. And sometimes I've seen people who too quickly jump into, like, ministry, yeah, and things like that, and you're not fully prepared yet. Like, there is a season you got to go, you know, like Jesus tells the disciples, don't tell anybody yet you're not ready. Yeah, to explain everything that's happened to you. This is one part, but you haven't seen the resurrection yet, yeah, and when you see the resurrection, then you have a more full picture to to go out and do. And so there's a, you know, there's, there's an eagerness to go out and do that. We that we need to resist sometimes, but, but there is a season of intensity where you start to see, yeah, I mean, you see Jesus face shining, yeah, and, and, and you want to stay there like this is, I want to build up a tense confirmation of all your confirmation, everything makes sense, yeah? Clarity. I want to stay here, yeah, and Jesus says, No, you we do need to go down that said you're not ready yet to do a whole lot. You know, you need to continue following me, and there's going to be other experiences like that. But all of this is in like is in preparation for something that God's calling you to do and but he's still in control over the whole thing. I

Tom Helmich: 44:18

think that one point of fear that can come in is whether or not we're strong enough to make the job. To make the journey. Yeah, you know whether or not we have what it takes to do it. And then what you said about Elijah reminded me, because So Elijah, when he ran here, right was Jezebel, ran and sat under a broom tree and gave up and just said, Lord, take

Tevo Christmann: 44:34

my life from That's right, yeah, right. He literally said, I want to die.

Tom Helmich: 44:38

To die I'm I'm done, I'm done. But then he slept, and God brought like in the picture is the crow bringing the food, right? There's a suddenly, there's a cake, there was water. God provided everything you need, and woke him up and saying, wake up and eat, or you will not be strong enough from the journey, yeah, to give him the strength to to go. And that journey that the angel was speaking to him about was that journey up Mount Hor. A which is the other name for, I just remember that other name for Mount Sinai. And then he went to that cave, and then the he heard the voice, presumably, it was presumably an angel telling him, come out. The Lord is passing by. So we, not only do we get guided, we get the sustenance we need to make it. And it's not about our own strength, because our own strength will fail if we don't have that guidance from from God to give us what we need to get to where we're going. So it is. It's not about us failing. It's whether or not we're going to be willing to to go on the journey, or just say, No, I'm good, right here. Just take my life. I'm ready. I'm done.

Pastor Joe Liles: 45:38

One I think that's the important part. Is that the journey is never revealed. I mean, I think the ultimate journey is right, with Jesus Christ, kingdom, right? We have this promise of forgiveness and eternity with God, that's where the eternal glory and the light shines, right? Is in that space. But this next spot is, hey, I'm going to lead you up a mountain, right? Like that. That's all you're getting. Like, you're not getting more than what's happening on the mountain. They don't that's not revealed to the mountaintop once the mountaintops are like, great. Like, hey, we're heading down the mountain, and you're like, it's just this next part where, like, hey, the Lord's walking by. Come on out, you know. Like, okay, what's, what's the whole journey, you know? Like, I would love to know the whole journey so I can be in and I don't think that's what God gives us when God's meeting us in that space.

Tom Helmich: 46:17

I think that's the faith and the trust. Yeah, there's the faith. Just get in the bus.

Pastor Joe Liles: 46:21

That's it. And I think taking that step is what leads us into that deeper relationship with God. Because we're not trusting the journey, we're trusting the next step. We're trusting that God is going to be at the next step, and that God's going to continue to be there. And when we don't go up the mountain, we're going to be led up the mountain. And if it's not there, and we didn't know it was today, God's going to invite us up there, right? We're going to meet God in those experiences. And so I think a lot of our story comes with the fear of the whole journey, when we just need the next step in the journey. We just need that one next step to be a cure. We go again. That's on the run, right? Yeah, one more step. Oh, yeah, one more aid station. That's it. I ain't running 100 miles. I'm running 3.7 to the next aid station

Tom Helmich: 46:58

before we run out of time. We got to clarify on the last bit of the reading, because it sounds almost like a reincarnation issue. Oh, yeah, John the Baptist. So we gotta talk about what this this means. Yeah, great. 13. When he said, You know that, disciples asked him, Why did the scribes say that Elijah must come first and then the scribes? Those are the Jewish, the educated, the theologians of the time, the along with the priests, and they're talking about prophecy. That's that the belief that Elijah would come first before the Messiah. And Jesus replied, Elijah is indeed coming and will restore all things. But I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but they did to him whatever they pleased. And so the the reading that I used was, if you are willing to, I don't remember where that which gospel it came from. I said, if you are willing to accept it, you know Elijah has already come. Yeah, you because what he's he's talking about John the Baptist coming as the prophet, and the Elijah, his identity being synonymous with the identity of the prophet that would prepare the way from God. And that's John the Baptist saying, the one who, who, who's the voice cries out in the wilderness, Prepare the prepare the way of the Lord. Make the way of the Lord straight, or make the path straight. That John the Baptist was fulfilling the role of the Prophet to prepare the way, not necessarily the specific human being, Elijah, yeah, but the the role of the Prophet to prepare the way, it was fulfilled in John the Baptist. So it's not a reincarnation narrative, it's

Roseann Bowlin: 48:27

he was fulfilling the prophecies that Elijah was telling us about,

Tom Helmich: 48:32

right? He was fulfilling that role of the Prophet to prepare the way for the Messiah. Because otherwise it's like, well, then John the Baptist wasn't John. He was actually a light. And then we get to the then we get the

Pastor Joe Liles: 48:43

whole reincarnation thing, yeah, right, yeah, resurrection of the body. And, like, I don't understand what's happening

Tevo Christmann: 48:48

anymore. Yeah, that all said there's, this is one of the passages, along with the passage where Saul goes out to a necromancer to and summons the spirit of Samuel in the in the Old Testament. Yeah, and Samuel comes as a ghost and talks to Saul, right? Yeah. You know, it's a trippy Stephen King, should admit it,

Pastor Joe Liles: 49:09

people like, I won't read my Bible now. And I was like, let's go, Yeah, but

Tevo Christmann: 49:12

this is one of the passages along with that one from Saul that that we get the sense that, like, we don't get any further explanation. But there's some other realm, yeah, where I guess people live or spirits live. I mean, it's the end of our knowledge. This is as much as we get, yeah? Because here it says the Elijah and Moses showed up. And, you know, many people say it was because it's Elijah never actually saw death, right? He was taken up in a carriage, correct? Yeah, which presumably a fire that doesn't burn otherwise, yeah,

Tom Helmich: 49:44

but then Moses did die. Well, we know where Moses died, where he was buried, and so I mean that, but yeah, you're actually right. This is the part where we have something we're like, what's next? And we, we don't know,

Tevo Christmann: 49:58

against the limit. Sense of our I mean, so in

Tom Helmich: 50:01

relation also, that informs how we interpret Scripture, though, about the danger of taking this style of of writing as a word for word testimony, like in a scientific sense, or something like that, rather than looking not at the words, but at the message beyond the words, yeah, right,

Tevo Christmann: 50:19

the the Jesus's face shining is a parallel to Moses's face shining when he came down from from Sinai. Did his face literally shine? Or was it perceived as shining? Or was it so bright or full of revelation that I can only describe it as shining? We don't know. We won't know, and that's just what it is.

Unknown: 50:43

Yeah, I mean, it

Pastor Joe Liles: 50:44

goes back to, and I love this, the we don't know, it goes back to this beautiful space where, like, there is an element of our knowledge that then becomes faith and belief, right? Like it has to it's inescapable, right? That we get to a place where we're like, we cannot read any more into this, right? We love it, and it's here, and we study it and we understand it. And that's why, I think a historical series that we're in talking about real places in real time, yeah? Bring this to here, and then we say, and that's where we live, yeah, right. And then we come off the mountain, right? And we were back into this

Tevo Christmann: 51:14

moment of, yeah, our faith isn't based on our being able to explain every detail of it, just as the disciples weren't able to explain what in the world was going on, yeah, but it's based on our own mountain top experiences that we've had that we can look back and say, I can't deny that it happened. Yeah. And

Tom Helmich: 51:30

I think that's the the kicker with faith, right? Is we have to be careful to resist the temptation to explain away things that we can't understand, right, or that we might have dissonance with. And that's one thing in like in my my advanced Old Testament, course, one of the warnings of the professor is, don't fall to the temptation to explain away things that we don't understand or don't like, yeah, because it's the revealed word of God, and if God did it, then it's right, and that's the standard. And there are things be things that we might not agree with or might under and not understand, but yet they're there, yeah? And we have to be able to sit in that, because that's what that's for, the requirement of faith, right? You have to have faith and trust. And if you want to dig deeper on that, biblingo has a great, like, two hour long podcast on the one word, pista, yeah, it's great. How you get into this, and it's, it's, yeah, it's a lot deeper

Tevo Christmann: 52:16

than, I mean, as we read the Bible, we learn from it what it is saying, Yeah, we don't try to infer from it.