Jesus Wept...When was the last time you truly let yourself feel sadness?

In this deeply personal episode of the TNC Podcast, Pastor Joe Liles, Tom Helmich, and Roseanne Bowlin explore the complex emotions of sadness and grief through the lens of the biblical story of Lazarus. 

Drawing from personal experiences and theological insights, they unpack the nuanced journey of mourning, discussing the stages of grief, the importance of community support, and how faith provides hope in difficult times. 

The conversation touches on spring break reflections and a recent car accident and sets the stage for upcoming discussions on anger and Easter. Listeners will find comfort, understanding, and spiritual wisdom in this raw and compassionate exploration of human emotions and healing.

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome and Introductions
• 2:06 Spring Break and Personal Reflections
• 4:34 Exploring Sadness and Grief
• 11:02 Stages of Grief
• 28:24 Addressing Anger and Frustration
• 32:50 Upcoming Events and LIFEgroup Launch

Transcript

Pastor Joe Liles: 0:01

I love working with you. Fantastic. Ready. Welcome to the TNC podcast. We are recorded in studio in the worship center at the neighborhood church. I'm joined by my two faithful, loving, compassionate and caring podcast hosts to my right, we have the one, the only previous intern, previous kids, city teacher, current youth leader and future pastor of care and education at the neighborhood Church, the one the only Tom, how much Tom helmets, that's right. And Tom is working through his last semester at school right now. And and I'm excited Tom, because in May, we have some big, big dates coming for you, ordination graduation Sunday, which you're preaching on, because you've done graduated seminary, which is going to be great. We're going to talk about baptisms, because you're gonna be able to do baptisms at that point. So let's just add a little bit more to that mix, which would be great. There's some people asking about baptism right now, and I'm like, Look, if Tom's in, we might be heading to the river, right So, but you've been in there with me before.

Tom Helmich: 1:01

Oh yeah, I've helped. And I actually had to get permission from my supervisor to because on internship I did, yeah, an intern, right towards the end of internship, did a baptism of somebody on home hospice. And so that was an experience. That's absolutely

Pastor Joe Liles: 1:15

an experience. You needed permission to do baptism. Can you tell me a little about the theology of that Tom

Tom Helmich: 1:20

have to have permission. It was just, like, a kind of respect of the of, like, the way things work, and the hierarchy and supervision and stuff, okay, I like that. Yeah, any baptized Christian, technically can baptize yep, yep. I had a person ask me

Pastor Joe Liles: 1:31

yesterday they had met someone who wants to be baptized, like, can we just go baptize them? I'm like, oh, there's a whole lot behind this. Whole lot behind this. And the answer, biblically, is yes, the answer of a public affirmation of, you know, an external affirmation and outward appearance of an inward faith. There's a whole lot that goes into that about KNOWING Jesus Christ and what baptism means. And so Baptist was a great conversation. And man, we have so many babies about to be born in the church. There's at least three that I know of right now that are coming into the life of the church in the next couple months, so exciting. And oh, then we got baby hope, right, which was over there. So, oh my gosh, there's so many babies, which is absolutely wonderful. And so with that to my left, our wonderful director of operations, the one, the only Roseanne bowling, Roseanne Bowlin That's right, coming in. And so, so we are here, and we're at the post end of spring break. So last week was Spring Break. We all had an exciting spring break. Tom, did you go anywhere on

Tom Helmich: 2:26

spring break? So my wife and I, on my spring break, which is different than our spring break here, went to Florida to visit my parents. Nice, because when the spring break was going on here in Northwest Arkansas, I still had class. You still had

Pastor Joe Liles: 2:39

class. So this was seminary spring break. Yes. Okay, and you went to Florida. How was that?

Tom Helmich: 2:42

Florida. How was that trip? That's great. Weather was awesome. Weather was fishing. Oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah. That's great. Good. About 30 miles out. And

Pastor Joe Liles: 2:49

are we going to celebrate your ordination by going fishing in Florida? I think we should. I think we should. That's definitely a great thing. It's gonna be a great thing. Okay, it's great. Uh. Roseanne, what did you do on spring break when you had a week off of school. What did you do? Roseanne, I came to work. You came to work every day, every day. It's great. That's a joy. That's an absolute joy. Was the preschool lively during spring break or a lot of people gone? It was lively. It was lively. Okay, that's great. It was we have a lot of

Roseann Bowlin: 3:16

students, yes, for the amount of staff we have,

Pastor Joe Liles: 3:19

yeah, yay. That's great. So right at that ratio, which is wonderful. So with that great so we're here after spring break. So I decided that really spring break coming after it, after all this joy that people had, traveling, going to visit, people, going all that fun, that we would talk about sadness in the church. And so that's kind of a Hey, welcome back. It's great. And then we're gonna drop sadness. It was, it was a moment, right? It was a moment and, and just I was a little bit sad, because we got in a car accident on the way home from spring break. So our car was totaled. All the kids are safe. We're safe. We got hit at a dead stop at 45 miles an hour, and you don't see it coming, so there was no warning, which I think actually gives us kind of that looser body, like, hey, okay. Like, we didn't know what was gonna happen. We just, all of a sudden, we're in it and sadness for future reality, like Kaylee. That was Kaylee's car. She was gonna have that car sadness of the amount of work that has to happen now in the next three weeks, when we're on a run towards Easter. I was like, man, whoo

Tom Helmich: 4:21

pocket timing for

Pastor Joe Liles: 4:23

a pastor. And I was like, oh, like, for after this podcast, I'm jumping in my truck and driving to Muskogee, Oklahoma to go pick up my damaged car and so and bring it back here. So there's a lot going on, but sadness we took as this phrase from one verse in the Bible, debatably the shortest verse in the Bible. But it said Jesus began to weep. And this is John 11, verse 35 and it is regarding the death of Lazarus, right, who he said was just sleeping. And but Mary and Martha are beside themselves because this is their brother. They called for Jesus. Jesus did not come. And interestingly enough, what I didn't share on Sunday in Roseanne, we were talking about this just right beforehand, you were telling me something about the three days that Lazarus was dead, but Jesus came on the fourth day. And I didn't talk about this in the message, because it didn't really line up where we were going. But it's very interesting, and it's really extra biblical, which means it's outside of Bible. It's outside of Scripture. So this is not something we find in Scripture, but it is something we find of the Jewish tradition. And so I thought it was super interesting. So can you share with the people what you were talking to me about?

Roseann Bowlin: 5:28

Well, I read this in the study Bible Sunday as you were going over that, and it was just a side note, but in the Jewish tradition, after three days, they believed that the spirit leaves the body, and Lazarus had been dead for four days. So to his sisters, he was dead, dead,

Pastor Joe Liles: 5:49

dead, dead, dead, not coming back. Yeah. So, so a little bit more about the Jewish tradition, right? They believed that that spirit hovered around the body right for three days, hoping to see life in the body, right? And there's this kind of saying that if color came back to the body, the Spirit knew the body was alive, right? And the Spirit would re enter the body, right? And then there was be resurrection. This is most likely a resurrection reality in the Jewish tradition, because Jesus was raised from the dead after three days. But that says after the third day, if the Spirit saw no change in color or change in the body, the spirit left. That was it. That was done and, and it's commentary. I read. It said, just for everyone's information, that means that Lazarus was super dead, like, really dead. And, like, I looked like The Princess

Tom Helmich: 6:35

Bride, only a little dead, only a little mostly dead,

Pastor Joe Liles: 6:39

right? Oh, great reference, Princess Bride, you're right. You

Tom Helmich: 6:42

saw that really dead. I'm like, I popped in that could see that scene of like, only mostly dead,

Pastor Joe Liles: 6:46

only mostly dead, yeah. And that's what it was, right? And the spirit leaves, and then we know the body of Lazarus is really dead. This is when Jesus comes, right? So now, mind you, in all of their traditions, there's nothing they can do, because the spirit really leaves when the body starts to decompose. That was kind of the issue, right? So after four days, the body is decomposing, and so there's no way to resurrect the body at that point. And so Mary and Martha really come to Jesus weeping, and they come in sadness right over Lazarus

Roseann Bowlin: 7:17

and disappointment too. Oh, share more. Well, they were disappointed that Jesus didn't come before that third day. Interesting, because he could have put that spirit right back in his body. Interesting.

Pastor Joe Liles: 7:29

So it doesn't talk about disappointment in the text. But I love that inference, right, that there might have been okay, let's, let's open this up. So when

Tom Helmich: 7:37

was the little girl? Was this before Lazarus, when he said, little girl, get up. Yes, that was so they knew that he could do because this was six days before Passover, right? So he'd already raised this little girl, yeah, yeah. So I knew he can do it. But

Pastor Joe Liles: 7:50

here's the deal. Remember, raising the girl was not in presence. Raising the girl was with her father, right, right in the home. Wasn't even from it wasn't even there and could do it

Tom Helmich: 8:01

well with a little girl? Well, no, we're talking about the there's so many people Jesus brought

Pastor Joe Liles: 8:07

back so many people. Like, there's like 20 people Jesus brought back,

Tom Helmich: 8:11

like billions, if you think about it, on the grand scheme of the Earth as Christians, that was like the the centurions servant, yeah, there's the one where Jesus says, where even notes in there, the Aramaic Talitha, Kum little girl get up. Little girl get up, you know. So, like, raised from afar, yep, raising this presence up by just his words, say little you know, get up. And then there's Lazarus. And where is this miracle for

Pastor Joe Liles: 8:35

nothing, right? So this is interesting, though, because what, you know, what we talk about in seminaries we're becoming pastors, is that we can't read into the text our own emotions, right? We have to take from the text what it's giving us, right? And it's super hard to do, right? So like, when I preach, you know, I kind of, I stand on that line, right? But, like, I go back and forth on it, right? Because I think people feel emotions from the parables, right? So the parables draw out our emotions, because we're supposed to find ourselves in them. The stories that are factual, like this one, right here, we're supposed to take those facts from it. But I love thinking about like, what were Mary and Martha feeling in those moments? Right? And I love disappointment, right? Disappointment is very strong. And I think about being disappointed in Jesus, kneeling at the feet of Jesus and just saying, if you would only been here, if you had presence with me?

Roseann Bowlin: 9:26

Yeah, that's a really interesting here. We wouldn't be the sad,

Pastor Joe Liles: 9:30

right? And that disappointment stops that nothing more can happen now, right? So they limit Jesus in that moment, right? And it's an interesting way to think about disappointment. If disappointment is something where we stop people from a hope, also, I I'm disappointed you, and I'm now lacking hope in you, right, that this thing can change Tom. What other emotions do you think Mary and Martha had while they were there? It's probably some

Tom Helmich: 9:53

legitimate frustration, maybe some anger. I think so. Some you know, the mourning, the sadness, but also knowing what. Jesus could have done and didn't. And I think a lot of people probably feel that when somebody dies, we hope for a miracle, but, you know, we when we pray for a miracle, but sometimes the answer is not yes. And there, I think there's, you know, some legitimate anger in that. Sometimes,

Pastor Joe Liles: 10:13

yeah, I think you're 100% right. Right? Is that I think about them knowing that Jesus chose not to come disappointments, a language there. But man, like all the time they spent with Jesus, right? Being gathered with Jesus, opening their home to Jesus, being present, sharing meals, right? Like we have the mary martha story of preparing the meal and sitting at the feet. Then you have this story, right? And then you have the other story, where they're kind of walking right and around the resurrection, right, and different things like that too. Like you have all these stories that exist, right? With Mary and Martha? Yeah, there's frustration, there's anger, there's disappointment, these are all very human emotions. And so what I was defining on Sunday was this reality of what sadness is. And I started with the question of, why are you sad, right? Which a lot of us have asked before, in a life where people have asked us. But secondly, I said it's really deeper than that. It's, why are you grieving, right? And so, so, man, this is, it's gonna be a heavy podcast, right? It was a heavy Sunday too. But my daughter Kaylee even came to me after the message. She goes, were you crying on Sunday? Like, were you emotional? And I was like, I was talking about grief. Like, and when you talk about grief, you can't help but think about all the times that you have grieved before, right? And being that. And so it's like, Yes, I was emotional, like it was there. So, um, talk to me about grief. What, what do you guys feel is, is the nature of grief, right? What is that definition of grief, as you both understand it?

Tom Helmich: 11:39

I don't have, like, a definition, per se, but I know it's like, when my granddad died and when my aunt told me, yeah, because I was upset in the basement we're in, I hung out and tinkered and made things and stuff and crying. And she's like, you know, your tears aren't really for him, because we know where he is. He's in a better place. Our tears are for ourself. We're we're mourning the fact that we are here without that person now, yeah, and it's, it's a new reality of what of the new reality of our life without that person, person physically, physically with us. So there's that sadness, that longing for, for what's not going to be anymore. And it's kind of a, I don't say a healing process, but kind of it's, it's a time to to ponder what the new future is. New Reality is because, like for the survivors, we live on, we still have a life to live and people to love and things to do, and it's now going to be very, very different than it was going to be. Yeah, before, you know, I don't think there's a, I got a book at home called the myth of closure. I don't think there's any. I think idea of closures, you know, a myth. People look for and it's not real. It's a process of redefining what our role and the relationship with other people is in the world that's going to be different. And we don't want to try to get rid of of mourning or of grief, because if, if we don't grieve, then we didn't love them, so that mourning is evidence of the love between those two people, and it's that that time to kind of celebrate that and learn to live into our new reality apart from that. And so I don't think like getting away from grief is a good idea, because, yeah, it's almost like trying to deny the love it's but it's a period of time to determine what our new reality is and our new role and new relationships are.

Pastor Joe Liles: 13:20

So you said a period of time, right? Related to grief? What's the period of time? Oh,

Tom Helmich: 13:25

I have no idea. I think it would probably depend on the on the person. You know, we go through the was it the five? You know, stages of grief, stages of grief. But now that you know different they can be in different orders. Some may be skipped. You know, it's all it's depends on the person. It depends on the relationship. It depends on what's going on in their life, or depends on the consequence. On the consequences. It just depends on what they need. Do. You know what those stages of grief are? I just have these memorized denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance. Wow, not necessarily. I

Pastor Joe Liles: 13:55

was really good. I swing and stop from home, give it up for time High School. Yeah, that's from high school. Yeah. So long ago? Oh,

Tom Helmich: 14:01

I know you weren't born yet.

Pastor Joe Liles: 14:04

No, you were, but you were in a bit. Yeah, I was, yeah, very, very

Tom Helmich: 14:07

but back then they thought I went in that order. We know the case now, some people may skip certain parts entirely, or breeze past one so fast you don't even notice it, but it's just dependent on each person and what each individual person needs to to be willing to accept her new

Pastor Joe Liles: 14:22

reality. Yeah, we have denial, which is avoidance, confusion, elation, shock and fear, and then it kind of dips into anger, right, which is frustration, irritation and anxiety, down to depression, which is overwhelmed, helpless and similar hostility. And then up to bargaining, which is struggling to find meaning, reaching out to others, telling one story, and then to acceptance, exploring options, new plans in the making, and then moving on right, which is there. So, yeah, it's interesting. I also listened to a podcast this morning, and the podcast this morning was talking about finals, you know, like the necessary endings, right? And what those are. And it was talking about leadership and. Else leadership should never end. Like, and people talk about how to, you know, move on in leadership. And they're like, No, you didn't ever move on to leadership. Like you just come into a space where you have a new reality of leadership, right? That there's not this ending, there's not a closure, right? Like you just keep moving. And I think that's a large part about grief, is that the fear from grief is that we'll always be in grief, right? And I think instead of fearing always being in grief, there's an acceptance of Walking With that grief, knowing that over time, people share the weight of that grief with you. But yeah,

Tom Helmich: 15:30

and your new reality, you start to live into your new reality, realizing life goes on so in the moment, all your life is encompassed in that grief of that loss. Oh, yeah. And then as you go through through time, there's new life and hope, and it's living alongside that. And the longer you go, the more it balances out the new things going on. That old part's still there. You know, there's still loss and that, I don't think that ever, ever goes away, but we still have to continue to live on through that grief. And so it, I think it's always a part of us. It's always there. And I think they're very healthy ways to acknowledge that and to celebrate those people in those relationships, while still living into our life that we have reality, new reality.

Pastor Joe Liles: 16:12

Tom, you were talking about spring flowers before this. I got a dark sense. You have a very dark sense of here. So this is we're leading into a grief podcast, and we're talking about it before we get on the podcast. Tom's, I'm trying to remember how this goes. And I'm like, What are you trying to remember how it goes? And he's like, spring flowers. And I'm like, Oh, this is okay. And I'm sure there's a poetic Yeah, put it. Can you share it? Can you keep mine? Can you give the people your dark humor? My mark. This is great. Mark

Tom Helmich: 16:35

is my coffee. For 25 years, changes a person. It's like, Yeah, always great. Beautiful, colorful spring flowers that are emerging from the ground fed on the nutrients of the rotting corpses of those who came before them. Yeah, it's last year's dead plants. You know? Wow, it's new life comes out of Yeah, yeah. And spring is a reminder of that. And I think that's probably a reason and a divine plan that that Easter happened when it did. You know, nugget, it depends on where you are in the world. Oh, absolutely upside down with this idea here, where it lines up with, you know, the colors of the season and the idea of new life and spring reservation resurrection. You know, that's like a little bit of a preview, right? It's like the Easter egg of like, look what's happening to Lazarus. It's beyond what can possibly be done. Yeah, beyond what anybody's ever seen before. And, yeah, it's almost like, hey, hold my coffee. Watch this. Yeah, right,

Pastor Joe Liles: 17:25

yeah. You know, even something bigger, hold my coffee. Hold my coffee. Well, yeah, I mean, it's this church. Yeah, that's great.

Tom Helmich: 17:32

But yeah, I mean, it's like a little bit bit of a foretaste of what was to come with, yes, His resurrection, and which is even more so what we will all experience at the end of the age for us. Yeah, that's

Roseann Bowlin: 17:43

beautiful. I think an important point is that we have to go through that death so we can get to the resurrection. We can't skip that part.

Pastor Joe Liles: 17:54

But how often do we want to skip that part away every day? I mean, that's an important thing that we can't miss is that no one, I think, desires to grieve. I think that's that

Tom Helmich: 18:03

when you get to unhealthy grief where you try to avoid it. Oh,

Roseann Bowlin: 18:05

interesting. I was never on my bucket list. No,

Pastor Joe Liles: 18:08

no, right? Not, not, no. Rosanna, have you experienced grief before in your life? Oh, yes, yes, yep. Tell us a little bit about your walk with grief, what that's been like for you, right? As we kind of explore this depth

Roseann Bowlin: 18:22

so, so April, I call the month of great sorrow, okay? Because eight years ago, eight years ago, my husband had a motorcycle accident and suffered traumatic brain injury, no broken bones, no internal injuries, but, but they told me that it's like taking a Tupperware bowl of jello and just shaking it and it sheers off and and that's what happens to the brain. So he was coming back to us, but at 18 days, he was done. So he passed. And so I started that journey into grief, yeah, and I'm not through it. It's not done so. And I can remember, as I was preparing for this podcast, yeah, I was send. Sometimes you get flashbacks. So I get flashbacks at the hospital and how much he improved, and and then we had a setback. And so, you know, it was back and forth for 18 days, and I was called to the hospital, and I said they called me to the consultation room, and I said, Well, this can't be good, yeah. And then once they cleaned up his body. I got to go in there. And I can remember looking at him and saying, Hey, buddy, we had planned. Yeah, right. And now what are we going to do? Yeah, because now I have to walk this journey by myself. Yeah, not alone, because that's an important. Distinction. It because God was with me the entire way. I had so many people surround me. It was incredible. But again, he was my husband. Even my sister will i She'll say, Oh, I just miss him. We talked about movies, we talked about music, and I'll look at her and go, but he wasn't here. Yeah, right, yeah. So, you know, and it's a different grief, so, and of course, I've lost my parents too, but really, you kind of expect to lose your parents at at a certain true yeah, not that, not that you want to, not that you're looking forward to it, unless they're rich, you might, you know,

Pastor Joe Liles: 20:45

yeah, right, wow, this is great,

Roseann Bowlin: 20:47

but, but losing a spouse is the hardest thing I've ever gone through, and that's been eight years ago. Now, eight years? Yeah, it'll be eight years, the 29th of this month.

Pastor Joe Liles: 20:59

Yeah. David was a faithful volunteer, serving on set. He loved church. He was amazing. And he wanted to start, remember, the motorcycle ministry he was starting. Oh, he was so passionate his notes, yeah. Oh, the patch that he wanted to do, right? I mean, I remember the design of that patch with them and everything else like that. I mean, there were so many things that I loved about David, yeah.

Tom Helmich: 21:18

I remember I met him. I met him at church, but I got to know him real well at the we did that men's retreat. Oh yeah, bromance. And because I was going through my first experience of dealing with being a teenager, Oh, that's right. Call a routine. And he's just kind of looking at me, and I'm like, I feel like I'm talking to like my grandpa or something. He's like, Well, sit down. Let's talk about that. So what do you think about this and that? And that? And then I'm like, I did that wrong? He's like, Yeah, it happens. Yeah. We spent a lot of time talking about my oldest at that trip, as I was at hospice with my wife and mother in law for my mother in law's brother, who is in the process of passing. When I got the call about David, it was kind of, you know, with with Ralph, it was something we kind of knew was coming with David as a complete shock and surprise, which makes it harder, you know, when you still expect to have life ahead of you. Yep, you know, it's the difference between the like doing chaplaincy at the children's hospital versus at a a nursing home. Yeah, you know, there's a time when it feels like it's okay, but when it's not, it's more shocking. It's like we still had plans. Like, what? Yeah, you know, yeah. It's like, 00, stars. Would not recommend like, yeah.

Pastor Joe Liles: 22:32

And I think that's the thing, is that we don't really grieve the past. We grieve the

Tom Helmich: 22:36

future, the future that's not going to be correct, going to happen, right?

Pastor Joe Liles: 22:39

And you said something very important when you're talking about David, you said, Hey, we had plans. Now I have to do this by myself, but I don't have to do it alone, exactly. And that is such an interesting statement, because we recognize that this journey is by myself now, because this was a shared journey that we were going to take, right so we're going to do this together right now. It's by myself, but by myself, I am not alone, right? And so there's this very interesting distinction. It's, it's one of the kind of final points I shared on Sunday, was that we grieve relationships. That's what we grieve, right? The relationships that we have are the ones, and the ones that we love is really an example of how deep our grief is, right? Is how deep our love was shared for them. So we grieve relationships, but relationships are also thing that help us release the weight of grief, right, right? So it's almost this, it's this identity that we grieve relationships, but we need relationships in order to release the weight of grief. And yet, we're entering the same thing that we are grieving again, right? Because the relationships are never immortal, right? Relationships are always mortal, right? And which means that we'll always find a place where we have to trust again in the kingdom of God. And there's a language that we have in a funeral, in the Lutheran book of worship, and the language is, help me again, trust that you are God. And it's in that final commendation, right, that final sending, and particularly in the whole service of our funerals. I love that language, because I feel that's where everyone is at. Help me again. Trust that you are God. I am grieving. I'm hurting past, present and future, and the only thing that can sustain me is that there's a future greater than the one I can see exactly, right? And a future will be gathered together again, right, in a beautiful way. And so grief is an exceptionally difficult thing, an exceptionally difficult thing, and I think sadness is the superficial presenting layer of grief, right? It is when we are sad, there's a reason for that, right? Because we start to get sad, and then we start to ask deeper questions about who that can be and why that is. What do you guys? What's your normal response when people that you know and love are sad around you? This was kind of my intriguing opening question. Was that, like, how do we respond when people are sad around us? So. Like, what did you used to do when David was sat around you? Was David a sad person, emotional person?

Roseann Bowlin: 25:06

Um, yes, but, but he was the type of person that needed to move through it okay, himself, yeah. Um, more probably talking about my daughter when, okay, he was going through sadness. Oh, yeah, so it would be, what's wrong? What, what? How, how can I help you? Yeah, you know, how can I be here for you? And even, even when David went through his accident, people were asking me, How can I be here for you? And I would say, just be here. Just pray. Yep, you know, I don't know if I need to be sad yet or not. Yep, right? I don't know the outcome yet. So we were in constant prayer. And same for my daughter when she was going through sadness or and she's going through some things right now that are difficult. And, you know, I just wanted as her mom, I just want to take care of it for her. But murder is, is, wow,

Pastor Joe Liles: 26:17

wow. That came hot. Oh, my goodness. Yeah.

Roseann Bowlin: 26:22

But I just, you know, you sometimes you can't do anything but be with that person in sadness, right? Yep, that's very just be a presence, let them know in a physical way that Jesus is walking with Yeah, yep,

Pastor Joe Liles: 26:39

absolutely Tom. What do you do when people are sad around you?

Tom Helmich: 26:43

So I'm an easy crier. You're an easy crier. Oh, yeah. I don't know if I knew this about you. Yeah, that's why I have trouble, even with some movies, okay, yeah, like this, yeah. I'm a guy that'll like cry at a funeral of somebody I've never met. Yeah, yeah, because of other if I see other people being sad, then it's just

Pastor Joe Liles: 27:00

yeah, empathy, yeah. Empathy. I wish I

Tom Helmich: 27:04

could, I could turn that off, yeah? But just it makes, makes me sad, you know? So there's that sometimes when somebody's grieving, there's the that panic moment of like, I have no idea what to say, because the first instinct is to want to fix it, yeah? And you can't, you just got to be there with them, yeah? Then like, oh, but then I'm going to experience that emotion, yeah? And in a way that's not necessarily validated, yeah, it's true, you know, which can be not helpful for the person actually grieving. And so learning, like, for me, like a big part of my discernment is, like coming into pastoral ministry, is to learn how to how to balance that, to know when it's going to be a problem or helpful for somebody, yeah? Because, I mean, that could be like, Why are you, you know, why are you press my you know? So I have to be Be careful on how to, how to manage that. And a lot of times it's like, okay, in the moment, and then after, afterwards, I just gotta go sit somewhere by myself. And, yeah, let you know, faucet, let it out. Yeah, be done with it. Yeah,

Pastor Joe Liles: 28:01

yeah. I think being present with people in grief is the shared reality of what Jesus did with Lazarus and Mary, Martha, right? It was, I'm going, not just going to be present with you, but the deeper part of grief is this. And I think the Christian part of grief is this. I will share this grief with you like you can cast some of this grief on me, and I will walk this with you. And I think that's why sadness is so hard, and sadness is not our only emotion, right? So we chose that one coming out of spring break. Ah, was it a miss? I don't know. Was it needed for the people in the church that day? Absolutely right? So we talked about that. We opened it up this next week, coming back from spring break, leading into Easter, right? So we have April 6. We got Palm Sunday come up on the 13th. We got 18th is Good Friday. The 20th is Easter, right? Really incredible. Kind of walk towards Easter and kind of out of Lent, right? So we're still in the season of Lent. This 40 days of Jesus to the cross. This mary and martha story was six days before Passover. Passover is the meal that Jesus had with the disciples, right? So we're moving into this Jerusalem time, and so this week we're going to talk about something that I think every one of us deals with in a wonderful way, anger. It's going to be anger and frustration that's a much easier emotion go to that's a much easier Why is anger so easy this week? You're so easy because it makes us somebody else's fault. Oh, interesting. Instead of dealing with our own stuff, we can just point our finger and say, You, because we don't have time. Your face was so emotional when you said you, yeah. Like, you scrunched up

Tom Helmich: 29:28

a moment of like, self awareness is realizing, oh, anger is a much easier to go to, and it's powerful, yeah, that's why, like, and the dabda, right the now anger, you kind of hang in there, and that's when you start being angry at other people, and then that just makes it worse. Her relationships, you know, you gotta go be angry by yourself until you get over it. Because it's not that's why most not, like, when people get really just, I'm like, I meet him around town. Or, like, when my son was in his accident, yeah, he's got a dash cam in his car. I mean, everybody have a camera in your car, just, yep, you know, for evidence of stuff. And pulled over a check on her because she. Uh, you had a collision. She pulled up in a parking lot. He pulled in. And she's just, like, just mad. He's, I don't know why she's so mad. It's like, what you Yeah, correct. It's just the adrenaline dump and the realization of this has happened. This is not in the plan. This is, you know, cars tore up. Mom and Dad give me all these things. And anger is the easiest place to go, absolutely,

Pastor Joe Liles: 30:18

absolutely, it

Roseann Bowlin: 30:19

probably is. And I think anger and sadness both come from disappointment. Ooh,

Pastor Joe Liles: 30:24

Oh, dang. So that's the same uh, kind of Genesis, right? The same moment of Origination. Because

Tom Helmich: 30:30

it's like, this is not what I had in mind, correct? This is not my plan. How dare? How dare you go deviate from my will, my plan? Yep, but

Roseann Bowlin: 30:39

God is in all of it,

Pastor Joe Liles: 30:41

yeah, when we got hit by this wonderful lady who's not a good friend, and we talk daily, when we got hit by her, she got out and and we were talking, and then finally figured out she lives near us. And so I said, Hey, you can just jump in with us. We're going to get a ride no matter what. And I said, we'll get an extra seat. Come on. And so, but at one point she stopped, and she goes. I could have hit someone who was angry, and I'm really glad you're not angry. And I was like, we have so much fear around angry people in our life. Like, that's, that's the initial reaction. Imagine if the initial reaction was, everyone has love in their heart for accidents and, you know, things that are outside of our control, and that's fine, if we have love, then no one has a fear in that situation. You know, it's an accident, something happened. Everyone's safe. We have love for each other. But that's not the writing emotion, no?

Tom Helmich: 31:27

Because I've got to go to hundreds, if not 1000s of Yeah, accidents and anger begets violence, yeah, with some people. And so I think it's not necessarily that was the anger of like, oh, you're angry with me. And there's also that, that safety, fear of violence that it can come from. It takes a lot of emotional maturity to recognize in that moment and not live into the anger. Yeah, very true, and control it, because, like, the animal side of us just wants to go to that. You know, this is the enemy,

Pastor Joe Liles: 31:58

yeah? So easy to go to that. Yeah, emotion absolutely happens.

Tom Helmich: 32:02

A lot horrible things are said right after, oh, yeah, no, good, no. But then 510, minutes later, completely different human being,

Pastor Joe Liles: 32:09

Yep, absolutely been in the moment. Yeah, there's a fear and an ear. So we get this exciting conversation on Sunday to talk about anger before we talk about joy, which is on Palm Sunday. So we're going to lead in with that one. We are moving our life group launched this week because there was an accident last week. So we're going to move it forward just a little bit one week and then launch it again this week. So I'm excited to see that happen. So there is a one last opportunity to get involved with life groups, right? We extended to one week. So if you're waiting for that nudge, by God, this might be it. But join us this next week as we talk about anger, or bring the person who's not angry in your life to church on Sunday, and just say this might be a great way for you to attend, because there's, oh, man, you go so much with anger, the righteous anger. Oh, it's great. Yeah. When is anger okay? Oh, great. Opener question, God is angry? Oh, yeah. When is it okay? Yeah. Like, when is it righteous? When is it in right relationship with that? We might open with that. So

Tom Helmich: 32:57

what be angry and do not sin. Uh huh, yep, yeah. We can't end the podcast yet.

Pastor Joe Liles: 33:01

We can't end the podcast yet. Have we not done the jingle? No, oh man, we didn't do the jingle. All right, well, we'll end it on the jingle. You ready? Yeah? A, one, a, 2479367, 2285, neighborhood, church, we love you all. That is the TNC podcast. Tom, go, did this deal? You?