The Neighborhood Church, Bentonville, AR
The Neighborhood Church, Bentonville, AR
What happens when you "let go" and "let God?"...special guests Tyra Dennis and Pastor Drew Trucker
Join Pastor Joe Liles, featuring special guests Tyra Dennis, an interim worship leader from Los Angeles, and Drew Tucker, executive director of Camp Hopewood in Ohio. Dive into a conversation about leadership, mentorship, creativity in ministry, and the transformative power of inviting others to use their gifts. Discover inspiring stories of personal growth, denominational experiences, and the importance of raising up new leaders within the church. Whether you're involved in ministry, seeking spiritual insights, or interested in leadership development, this podcast offers profound reflections on faith, community, and calling.
Great quotes from the Podcast
- "God doesn't call the qualified, God qualifies the call." - Tyra Dennis
- "Every song is not yours to sing." - Jonathan (Tyra's mentor)
- "I need to do what only I am called to do." - Drew Tucker
- "This church will never live and die by Sunday, ever." - Pastor Joe Liles
- "I will always risk faithfulness to raise other leaders up." - Pastor Joe Liles
Connect with The Neighborhood Church:
• New Here: https://tnclife.info/newneighbor
• Bible App: https://tnclife.info/bible-app
• Church App: https://tnclife.info/church-app
• Events: https://tnclife.info/events
• Give: https://tnclife.info/give
All right, welcome to the TNC podcast. We are recorded in studio, also known as the Worship Center at TNC. I have some special podcast guests joining me today to come guest hosts that have come from not anywhere local. We are not just grabbing from the pool of neighborhood people. We have guests that are coming from across the United States. One is from LA, and she is the one. The only our interim worship leader. I'm Tyra. Tyra, that's exciting. And then secondly, from a place called Ohio, which we've discovered is hard to find. And Tyra, I believe you asked me if we could stop there on the way to Arkansas from LA, was one of the questions that we had thought that it was before I'm like, Look, I love Drew and I love Ohio, but we are not driving to Ohio on the way to Arkansas. And so that was great. So we do have a special guest with us today from Ohio, and it is, Drew Tucker. Hello. Drew Tucker, the executive director at Camp hopewood in Ohio, multiple sites, yes, which I think we'll hear about a couple minutes and so, um, now you may ask, why? Why do we have an interim worship leader here and special guest? Drew Tucker? Well, one is because table and Kara are wonderfully have started a family, and they are with baby hope and and they're they're in it right, like they're feeding schedules, things are going amazing. And so baby hope is growing. And so we continue to pray for them as a church and continue to wish them just an absolute blessing, the start of the new family, because that is a special time. It's an absolute, special time to begin that new journey and to find time between them, to understand mother and father, which is really neat. So, but in that season, the church continues, and so Tyra's here for eight weeks, starting already, which you got to say, yeah. So it's eight weeks,
Tyra Dennis:yeah. Six more weeks.
Pastor Joe Liles:Six more weeks. Are we already two weeks in, yes, wow, that's, I've done two Sundays. Wow. That is amazing. So, and you've come in and kind of, kind of a real one table left a little week early, right? Because baby hope decided to come early. And then, so that was that. Then we had Ash Wednesday, three days later. And then three days later we had next step Sunday, which is the reason that drew is here. So next, oh, that's the, yeah, why are you bringing me into pretty new Yeah, Walmart.
Pastor Drew Tucker:It was, I was actually wanted to see Walmart 100 that's, that's the one that I came
Pastor Joe Liles:to witness. That's the one store 100 Exactly. Yeah, that's great. I'm just gonna give you the lingo, Walmart 100 is great. Yeah, I am ashamed. I when I lived in Fargo for CPE, which is clinical, Pastoral Education and seminary death Jess hometown. And while I lived there, Jess was supposed to live up there with me, but she got a job at the seminary, so I ended up living with her sister for three months and and so when we went out there, I was working at I know it's a whole deal, and don't worry about it. Basically, there's only one person in life that can live with this, and it's yes, the kids have to, because we born them and so with so I was up there, but they have a place called Detroit Lakes, right? And I worked at while I was doing CB, I was working at Texas Roadhouse, because I love the free rolls. And so I was working over Texas Roadhouse. The roads are fire, yeah, fire. Did you know that tangent? Here we go. We just wait. The tangent is this that you can get a dozen rolls for $5 if you just show up. I
Tyra Dennis:did not know that. And now that I know that,
Pastor Joe Liles:change your lifeline. Did not need to know. Yeah, that's the problem. Dozen rolls, $5 and I say, worth it. We've actually gone to Rogers, 25 minute drive to get a dozen roles that we've done that before. Yeah, it's more of like a celebration thing, but we've done it. So with that, I worked there, and I got to space where I was like, Hey, is everyone going to the DL, the Detroit Lakes? Because it's the Detroit Lakes. And they looked at me, and they're like, why? They're like, look, there's one way to know that you're not from runners when you call it the DL. And I was like, what? And like, it's just DL, but it's like, it's the Detroit Lakes. And they're like, Yeah, but here we just call it DL, you go into DL Detroit Lakes. And I was like, so I've been saying it wrong for three months. And they're like, Yeah, three months and I Dang. So it's
Pastor Drew Tucker:like, my parents putting an S on the end of Kroger Right? Like, oh, Krogers, right.
Pastor Joe Liles:No, no, please, no, not a thing. Yeah. I
Tyra Dennis:mean, if you say i Five, I 110 we know you're not from LA because you take the five to the 110
Pastor Joe Liles:Oh, dang. Okay, yeah, it shows immediately, yeah. So as we get in today, we're going to break down a couple things. One, we're going to meet Tyra. Gets a little more, a little bit more.
Pastor Drew Tucker:You got some words? I'm excited for
Pastor Joe Liles:them. This is why I didn't preach on Sunday. Warms you up, man. And you know, I went back to it thinking I could recover. Did the same thing again. So we're going to get to know a little bit more about Tyra and and then also Drew's going to share a little bit more about his. Ministry at Camp hopewood. But also what I love is that we come together from a perspective of larger work within the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, and when we come to that perspective, and us getting to be in the same space for a few days has been really profound. I think we came away with a lot of time together that really generated conversation about the hope for the future of the church, and how we can each play a role in that, and what that means. And so we're going to share a little bit about that at the end also. So but to begin and drew, I would love for you to think of a few questions that you have for Tyra. Like we're going to do an open question. You got questions. We got questions. So why? She's speaking writers? I figure we can just do like a little Q and A at the end with Tyra, just to get you know a little bit more. So Tyra, would you please share who you are and a little bit about your background work with the ELCA, and then honestly, what's been your experience at the neighborhood, with neighborhood church on Sunday morning and the TNC house band in the last two weeks?
Tyra Dennis:Sure, that's a lot of
Pastor Joe Liles:it's three questions. Let you go for a little bit. Yeah, break them down.
Tyra Dennis:Um, so who am I? So, my name is Tyra Dennis. I go by Tyra Lucia. It's a family nickname. Lucia has nothing to do with my actual name, okay. Um, sometimes our family gives you a nickname that is longer than your actual name. Yeah, that's, yeah, it's very interesting. I'm so tired. Lucy is mine, and I'm from Los Angeles. I am quintessentially black, like my fist does not come out of the air, which you can imagine going from LA specifically, Inglewood to Bentonville, Arkansas. It's been a time culture shock, but I have a creative background. I have played piano since I was three, sang since I was five, done musical theater, played other instruments, wrote songs, the whole nine, acted. And I love it. I love the performing arts. It's I was taught, like every life lesson you need to learn. Can be learned on the stage. And I firmly believe that that's true. Now, before I did not, but today, I believe it's true and and within that, the folks that mentored me coming up, they always talked about giving back and serving others. And so at a young age, I would every Saturday teach junior high. And when I was in high school, junior high and high school kids, I'm sorry, Junior High and Elementary School kids how to do what I do. So whether I was play piano or sing or act or whatever. Literally, every Saturday from nine to 12, that's beautiful. And you know, it was then it seemed like something else, but looking back on it, what I learned, like it was equipping myself and my peers to become really great leaders and to become servant leaders, right? And so I say that because it walks right into like what I've done in the ELCA, or like what my journey has been in the ELCA, I stumbled into the ELCA through a at the time, sock, S, A, W, C,
Pastor Joe Liles:so not typically authorized worship community. Nothing to do with feet, no, nothing to his feet except the hands and the feet of the Lord and Savior,
Tyra Dennis:Jesus the Christ. But essentially, it's, it's a worshiping community. So it is a church in its own identity, but it is not a church that is recognized like brick and mortar to the denomination. So I walked into this church, this worshiping community, and I did a few music things, and it was cool. So I stayed for like, a year and a half, learned that we were Lutheran. Was very confused by that, because that's not the thing that I was raised. I was raised Baptist, yeah. Um, so Baptist, that the name of the church that I grew up in, that was also directly across the street from my high school that had generations of my family grew up in was titled first new Christian Fellowship, missionary, Baptist Church. Wow, yeah. So just to give you,
Pastor Joe Liles:imagine that website, URL, first new Christian Wait, first new Christian Fellowship,
Tyra Dennis:missionary, Baptist Church. Wow, fellowship. Missionary,
Pastor Joe Liles:yeah, I was trying to the NBC, okay, yeah.org,
Tyra Dennis:and and my whole life I went to private school, private Christian schools, until high school suffered this one time I went to a Catholic school in Indianapolis, Indiana, but we don't talk about that.
Pastor Joe Liles:She said, private Christian schools, and then she separated the Catholic school that she went to. Man, we don't got time to Yeah, so there's so much there. There's so much there. I like Christian and Catholic
Unknown:for the sake of scholastic institutionalization. I
Pastor Joe Liles:can tell they're different, just by the way you separate. It is really different for a year
Tyra Dennis:and so. So with that background and up ranking, you can imagine, and I want to be very. Clear about this too. I went to a very black church. There were a few non black people at the church, but for the most part, everyone was black. So there was a cultural esthetic that I was accustomed to. The church that I ended up in in the ELCA was also a black church, and had very similar vibes, right, of just how we worship and how we gather as a people. But then I learned what the ELCA was and how white it was, and what that meant. Moving forward, how
Pastor Joe Liles:white is the LCA? Yeah, I was gonna, I was gonna pause there for a second, yeah. Okay, so the ELCA
Tyra Dennis:is the whitest Christian denomination in the United States of America. It is now 96.8%
Pastor Joe Liles:white. I had it in 97
Tyra Dennis:when I joined it was like 98.9 so in the last decade, we have gotten more people, but not enough to really move the needle, but enough to be like we're not fully white. And so I I'm glad that you stopped and asked me to explain that, because it actually affects my, my journey from that church I I was hired as a worship leader, and the pastor that I served with was very plugged in to the larger ELCA Model, yeah, to the denominational part of this right and opportunities were actually given to him, but as a pastor on his own journey, he would just send them to me. So that's actually what happened. Jonathan is an incredible musician himself, and people would ask him to let the band and and I remember the first one they asked in the lethal band for the Oasis, which is something that happens in the southwest California Senate area. So, no, I just
Pastor Joe Liles:want to give a little little props to southwest California Senate, right, right? Because you guys do really incredible work at like, putting together exactly which is at the oasis. And you have the Western States gather like, you guys see a need and you feel a need. And I've seen that happen multiple times. And so when I hear you say something like, oh, then we had the Oasis conference, and I was like, dang. Like, that's a Senate that's really working hard to meet needs for people and then supply for the needs of those people. So that's really cool
Tyra Dennis:opportunity. Yeah, you Yes. I will say, like, our Senate does that. I could break down what sin is mean right now to those who don't understand, but essentially, the greater Los Angeles circle is what we're talking about. And there's another Senate called the Pacifica Senate, which is the greater like Orange County and San Diego and Palm Desert area. So all the Lutherans in those areas come together, as many of us that would like to, and we go to an oasis retreat out in the Palm Desert for continued education, restoration, things like that, and just community. Jonathan was asked to lead the band. Jonathan says they want me to lead this band. I'm gonna bring you instead, because I think you are a better fit. So I'll play with you, and I'll bring the keyboard, and I'll play with you, but you will lead the band. Understand, you're about to be one of two black people. I will be the second, and you're about to lead a bunch of white pastors. Like, those were his words, right? And I was like, okay, cool. We get there. It's exactly what he says it is. And there's a moment where this one pastor goes, I guess he just got tired of me talking. I don't really know, but he goes, I'm sorry, who's leading the band, Tyra or Jonathan, because she's not rostered, which means, like, I'm not a pastor. You look at the camera, I'm not a pastor, I'm not a deacon, I'm not a bishop. So I have no authority telling them what to do.
Pastor Joe Liles:You feeling that I'm feeling he was wrong
Tyra Dennis:at me and Jonathan,
Pastor Joe Liles:how many years ago was this? I feel like we're still, like, not still okay, we're still in it. Jonathan
Tyra Dennis:said she is, yeah. That is why, when she speaks, I listen and do what she says, Yeah, everyone has gifts, even if they're not roster, that's beautiful, right? And that that was just how he taught, that's just how he believed. And he was big on throwing in the fire and making sure like you came out solid gold, right? So that started a thing. And then it became the eyes were watching. And then it became lead the Western States lead the Reformation 500 lead the extravaganzas. Lead the gathering. Work with the young people. Serve at this church. Be our youth ministry. Associate. Come to next step Sunday. Serve the gathering again. COVID wipes it out. Can you serve the gathering through a lens, like when we're singing into the green dot, put the house band together from the 18 gathering to do a concert to bring joy for what would have been the 2021 then push to 2022 then the gathering we don't speak about because COVID, right? Like and and then do it again. I. In New Orleans in 2024 teach congregational vitality, right? Help churches plant their church, or help pastors plant their church. They're all these things that I found myself doing that look like they don't connect. But for me, it always went back to creativity, like being able to hear God say, here's the thing I want you to do, and the way I want you to do it now, go help them do the same, like help them create and help them do it in love and in play, right? Because often times adults forget that we too can be jovial, we too can be playful, as we're reaching, like, the goal. And so I want to
Pastor Joe Liles:pause right there real quick, because I want to come back to a statement to you later. Drew, we've talked in the church about having, like, adult discipleship camp, yeah, like, like, throwing down, like a youth camp back in the day, but like, having a week at a camp where adults can just go kind of live out what was the mountaintop experience that earlier, because adults need it and we forget it. And the same thing in worship, like, like, we grew up in it, right? And then we get back to the space where we're adults and we have the responsibilities and life kind of weighs in us, and then we fall away from that, yeah. And so I think that's something I want to come back to later, so I apologize for pausing
Tyra Dennis:it. But no, no, that's great. Let me know when you do it. I would like to bring double dutch
Pastor Joe Liles:robes. You imagine that video on social like adults doing
Pastor Drew Tucker:double dutch? I can, and I can imagine it in part because I would be the one falling,
Tyra Dennis:yeah, Bishop Eaton can double dutch. I witnessed her rap Lizzo with me.
Pastor Joe Liles:Yeah, I was there.
Tyra Dennis:I'm just saying she probably is
Pastor Joe Liles:double dutch. Talk to her about this, yep. So
Pastor Drew Tucker:yeah, before we dive back in, since we're already paused, I want to say, I think your description of all the things you've been done, you have done and been invited into, where your gifts have been honored, I think one of the things that that pastors, deacons, parents, adults, in general, forget that comes from the power of an invitation, right? Yeah. Jonathan invited you, yeah, to do a couple music things at another level. Then Jonathan invited you to take his place in a way when he was invited to do something else. Yeah, and that doesn't mean he's responsible for what you've done by any means, but that opening of a door is a powerful gift that we can offer to people when we have the chance to just get out of the way. Sometimes you're like, this person's actually a better suited to lead this thing, yeah, right. And so I'm going to, I can support, I can play alongside, but I'm not the leader. I'm stepping back so they can lead, because I also want to learn too, yeah? And we can sometimes do our best ministry by just getting out of the way. Yeah.
Tyra Dennis:Let, let me be very clear, and I tell this story all the time when asked John, you know my name in the ELCA because of the work that Jonathan Hemphill did before I got here, like he did a lot of the things that I got to do and and because he did it, he opened, like he cracked the door open, and I was able to like and he walked, And he probably crawled and scraped his knees, but because he did what he did, I was able to fling it open and run, yeah, and, and it's not just him, right? He, he is a big part of it, but so is Scott Maxwell Doherty, and so is Tom holo I will always attribute like certain parts of my not just like my ELCA journey, but my, my faith journey, to those three men who also all happen to be passed. Uh, well, no, Tom's not a pastor, actually. Tom's a lay leader. But Scott, both pastor, Scott and Pj is what we call Jonathan, like they, they are the ones and and we'll get into this a little later with Chris, who's also a pastor, and Joe, who's also a pastor, who's seen here. But yeah, there's something about the invitation. And I think for me, what made me say yes to the invitation multiple times is they always let me color outside the lines. Yeah, they never said they would say, Okay, listen now, the liturgical color of the season is purple. Yeah, I know you're gonna make it purple, but don't be afraid to throw a little orange and like hot pink there too, because maybe that's what we need. And I was always allowed to say, great. And if it's too much orange and hot pink, let me know I can dollar back. We can have more of a lilac just tell me what it is. They never really told me no. And that's a that. That's the other part of the invitation too, right? If you're going to invite me to do something, you're really trusting me to do it in the way that you think I can do it, because you see something in me, maybe that I I don't see I say all that to say like we just did next step Sunday, and the thing that I thought about the whole time was all the steps that it took for me to get here. Yeah, right, as the interim worship leader at. The neighborhood church. My first time visiting the neighborhood church was the next step, Sunday. Yeah, couple years ago, yeah? Like, either 2022 or 23 something like that. And, and to be clear, like, Joe's tried to get me here for a number of years, yeah, and, like, probably, like, six years. And now we are here. But then the other thing, like, there's something Drew said, I'm sure we'll unpack this as we go on it. It's releasing control of the gift you give, right? Like it, I have a gift, and a lot of times I feel like I should be able to control it, because it's mine. Yeah, like, let me just be completely honest, it's my voice. I'm singing the song. I'm controlling what I'm singing, how I'm singing, who's playing while I'm singing, but, but the truth is, I really don't get to control it, and if I hold on too tight, then no one gets to experience what they're supposed to being connected to, to my gift, right? Yeah, I think that's like, that's the biggest thing I can say about my journey in the ELCA. I can also tell you I never in a million years thought I would ever be a part of this denomination, let alone say out loud myself, like I am Lutheran, that is the type of Christian that I am, If my people are listening to this, that are effective. So we can talk about, I know, I know, I know y'all think it's like treason, but it's okay, it's
Pastor Joe Liles:alright, it's alright. That's why I'm here, and that's why Lutheran and there it is,
Tyra Dennis:but, but, you know, it's, it is that? It is that thing of, sometimes you really can't control that the gift, like the gift that you're assigned to give, to the point I've tried to shut the door in my own face multiple times. And then God was like, what you thought? You thought he was getting out of this? Absolutely not. I did not want to leave the house man for the first gathering that I led. I just did not want to do it. I had all these reasons why. And and then, you know, I had many conversations with Chris, and then I signed the contract, and I still didn't want to do it, and then I had, like, a million more conversations with Chris. And Chris has a big personality. I have a big personality, so it worked out well, yeah, but I was terrified. And then we did it opening night, and I almost didn't go on stage opening night. That's how terrified I've performed in front of 1000 people before, but I was terrified to do this event, because I knew, like, there was gonna be a target on my back. I knew the emails I was already getting, there was some of y'all are racist, and so some of y'all said some really nasty things. That was not okay. But then it was also like understanding that the moment you step out there, you are responsible for 31,294 other people taking the next step, yeah, because they're listening to you do whatever you do, right? And I don't control like the other 12 people on the stage with me. I give them the music, I tell them what to do, how to do it, whatever. But they also have 12 other gifts that God's going to just activate that none of us are prepared for, because it needs to reach that one kid way in the rafters from Grinnell, Iowa, who's the only kid in his youth group, right? Like, that's when it gets scary, and the weight of that responsibility, like the realization of that it is terrifying. But then you look back at it and you're like, Okay, if that is what the journey called for, to get that one kid, and now you are 10 years later, that one kid's like, I saw you, and because I saw you, I decided to do this thing. And now I'm a seminary student because I'm about to be a pastor, which has actually happened. Like, I've heard those stories so many times where they'll find me on Instagram. So I mean all that to say, like the journey has been a journey. It has not been the easiest journey, but it's definitely not boring. It's, well, I mean, you're
Pastor Joe Liles:saying something that's super important, and I kind of want to take this last little portion. I think it's a good segue to Drew too. But you're talking about the difference between using your gifts and leading with your gifts. Yeah, right, yes, God has gifted you. And you can use those gifts, and you can use those gifts from the stage right, and using your gifts means great. God's gifted me. I'm going to use my gifts. You will experience my gifts, right? There's a difference. When you say, God has gifted me, I'm going to lead with my gifts, because the leading is the part of where you relinquish control, right? Where you say, hey, I can step out. I can lead this. And in fact, if I lead it, it's probably going to be more comfortable for me. It's going to be in a range that I know, right? It's going to be leadership that I that I'm. That I'm leading others with in a way that I feel God has gifted me uniquely with, right? And so I can see this, and I can see the path, right? When you say, Hey, I'm going to lead with my gifts, and I'm going to raise others up, and I'm going to step out of my own comfort zone, right? That is neat, because it goes back to the invitation, where people lead with their gifts, understand that we're not the only people with gifts, yeah. And so when we lead with our gifts, and not just use our gifts when we lead with them, what we start doing. I think this is a wisdom and leadership, and I would say only in my later years, like 14 years now, to the church. I would say maybe, like just prior to COVID, maybe come down, I really discovered this beauty, and like leading and raising others up right for their voices, and like letting, like letting this kind of, this moment of God that is working through each and every spirit, this movement of the Holy Spirit, and inside the priesthood of all believers, to start to raise up and just see what happens, like and almost like witness God and glimpse God in this. And that's what I see you doing. I've witnessed it in the gathering, right? I appreciate you sharing that you're nervous, because I've never seen you be nervous, and so like when you said, I was terrified because here's, do we all have now the experience of being up, like walking up on the stage and and usually I speak in front of hundreds of people every single week, right? I've led conferences, I've led Senate assemblies for 700 people. Is fine, right? Walk down that stage terrified, like I and here's, here's the hard part in the previous day's practice, when I was giving my speech, it went, I was, I was one minute into my seven minute speech, and the whole thing vanished, boom, like that gone. And I had one practice, and so I walked up and it was gone. Now, mind you, I had practiced it so many times because I was so terrified that it just kept on coming out. But I was like, I missed a whole section, like in my head, I was like, and it just vanished to where I couldn't even recall it. And I was like, well, that's great, because that's my last experience before I go on tomorrow, between 17,000 people so but there's a moment where the leadership there, though, is leadership among peers, where we are all raising each other up, like there was leadership so that you could lead right and you could lead others in demand, which are leading others in the groups, which are leading leaders, who are leading youth groups. Like, it's a beautiful expression of God to witness that through line of all the different people that God's putting in place. And like you said, the journey to get here right, and what that experience is and so, and I know you two, have you two done other things together outside of like, next step Sunday dinner. And if you don't know next up Sunday, you're listening to the podcast. It's our stewardship day. Many people call it stewardship Sunday, new consecration Sunday. We call it next step Sunday. And we say, look, take the next step in your journey of faith through giving. And if that's taking one step up in your giving, one step over to the left and the tithe right, stepping towards the tithe, starting giving, even that's the next step and so but we always bring in speakers to talk about that and share their experience. What have you guys done together outside of Next up Sunday that you've done
Tyra Dennis:here? Let me explain
Pastor Drew Tucker:this. It's good that Tyrus starting. It's good.
Pastor Joe Liles:It's great time. I said, What do I not know? I feel like I should ask this question before I brought you both in the same space. I feel like there's rich history here, rich history. It's
Pastor Drew Tucker:It's not wrong.
Tyra Dennis:Once upon a time, yeah, there was this lady. She's still a part of the time. She's not gone. The Lord has not caught her. You are looking
Pastor Joe Liles:into the game right now, in a very apologetic manner for saying there was a time,
Tyra Dennis:because it sounds like I'm about to say, yeah, no, but there is a woman named Rachel alley. She's one of my favorite humans on the earth because she taught me how to enjoy the sunset, which is weird because I'm from Los Angeles, and we have some of the most beautiful cotton candy sky sunsets over the beach, but I never really enjoyed it until Rachel um, but she got this great idea in her mind to find adults across the church to mentor high schoolers who are responsible for mentoring their peers in youth ministry. Man,
Pastor Joe Liles:that's a cascading relationship of mentorship. Yes, it's like some Inception type theory of mentorship in the church.
Pastor Drew Tucker:It It is, yeah, there were no tops involved, though.
Pastor Joe Liles:Yeah, nice reference. Well done. Just leave it on the end.
Tyra Dennis:Yeah, none of those um and Drew was one of the chosen few that
Pastor Joe Liles:was getting mentored. Were you in high school at the time?
Pastor Drew Tucker:All right, no, no. My attitude has always stayed at high school level. My Stuff humor middle school, but I was one of the mentors.
Tyra Dennis:Wow, that's amazing, and I was also one of the mentors. Where did you guys lead them with your gifts? No, let me tell you what the problem? Oh, there's a problem. I didn't know there was a problem started when we realized that somewhere we were the same person.
Pastor Joe Liles:No, okay, great. And the Alliance for nice, that's great.
Tyra Dennis:That's where the problem started. Because when I tell you that this man walked outside to hug a man with a gun in a hotel,
Pastor Joe Liles:this is. Moment. You guys been through it. We have had it was a time. It was a time we have lived through some things. Wow. I did not know this is, I'm learning things on the podcast. This is great. You guys have made small references to be like, oh, like you've said before, like, oh, Drew, and I've done this before. Like, you were selecting the songs for next up Sunday, and you put all the songs. I'm like, okay, like, there you go. And you're like, Yeah, of course, I've led with drew before. Like, I know where he wants to go. I know to go, I know what. And I was like, Oh, this is fantastic. I'm like, that's one of those moments actually, step back. Was like, God is so awesome. Like, things I didn't even know that are present, right? And being there. So, I mean, that's really incredible. How was your time leading with Tyra?
Pastor Drew Tucker:It was a lot of fun. Let me tell you, I in two different ways. One, we are the same person. So it's kind of like, if you're a nerd, welcome. We're glad you're here. If you're not, I'm going to say the words binary star system, oh, just go ahead and shut down. Yeah. But in some ways, it kind of feels like a binary star system where, like, we're not always in the same place, but we're always circling one another. And so, yeah, and so it's fun, because sometimes we're witnessing the leadership that's happening elsewhere, and sometimes we're actually in the same system and gathering some kind of gravity at places like next step Sunday, yeah, the neighborhood, right? And so part of that was that gravity, but grounding. Now, that's
Pastor Joe Liles:good. That's a G, that's, that's, that a lot, yeah, it does liberation level iteration. I mean authors, you know, I think, I think he is an author. Yeah, this is intro into getting to a book.
Pastor Drew Tucker:But the other piece, the thing that I have deeply enjoyed working with Tyra, is that we both care about raising up the people that are not just coming after us. But that's great, and that's something that that, again, not all leaders want to do, not all leaders are prepared to do, yeah, and so it's very refreshing in not just our church, not even just the church, but in this world where so many people want credit, want to be on the stage by themselves, or want to be the center of attention, to be saying. But what about one of the things that we worked on was raising up a youth man to lead the summit, because they had always called on, you know, adult musicians to be a part of, yeah, it's great leadership summit. And what Tyra did was pull together youth to be in the band that we're leading there. That's great, right? Yeah. And so that kind of intentionality around it was something that I have continued to appreciate, because when your relationship with someone like that, you have a level of accountability not just to yourself and your ideals, but the realization that we are not just serving the church that we see. We're not just in the neighborhood, we're hoping outdoors. We're not just serving innovation, and we are serving in ways that we're going to send people to tire. Funny story yesterday, we're hanging out. I found out one of my former students from Capital University in Columbus, Ohio, yeah, is now a member of the church wide staff. This person's not even Lutheran. Oh, wow, that's great. And so somehow it does, right? But just by intentionally doing work about raising up new leaders, sometimes they're going to impact the church in ways that you'll never know, or you might just find out in a coffee shop when someone else is on a Zoom meeting, and that's just, it's fun. So anyway, that kind of relationship where we're committed to that
Pastor Joe Liles:has been, no, you have this relationship with camps. I mean, like, like, that's what you see in camps, like, so you're at camp. Hopewood Executive Director, can you share a little bit about that role? What's going on at camp? Hope, what does that work?
Pastor Drew Tucker:Absolutely. Hope, what outdoors? We have two sites in Columbus, Ohio, we have hopewood pines, which is just north of the city. And then in Northeast Ohio, east of Cleveland, we have hopewood shores. We have about 480 acres of God's creation that we steward. And there, we serve family camps. We serve kids camps. We serve summer camps. We do retreats throughout the year. We just had a maple syrup festival this last great why? Why did I miss
Pastor Joe Liles:the maple syrup festival? Right? I mean, your boy, I'm a strong fan of log cabin, but, I mean, I'd come to maple syrup festival. There's, you're
Pastor Drew Tucker:gonna have to have some questions about your syrup choices. That's mostly corn syrup. But anyway, all that is to say we do lots of different things. I'm really committed to our mission is to inspire people to embrace their callings and creation and community, right? So our the leadership development, the sense of even if you're not called to lead in the church, even if you're not called to lead in a typical way of leadership, we believe that you are called to something significant, and actually to many things of significance. And so our design, our goal, our hope, is that by coming to camp, participating in our programs, you are opened, you are inspired. You are empowered to embrace your calling in creation, in the setting, outdoors, but also in community. That's you. It's us. Yeah, it's beautiful. So, yeah. So that's, that's what we do at Hope, put outdoors. It's, it's a lot of fun. It's all sorts of new to me, but it's all sorts of old to me as well. I grew up going to some of these camps, great. But then I stepped out and was in higher education for like, a dozen years. That's great, yeah, yeah, so to Duke University at Virginia Tech. I was at Capital University most recently for about six years, and then a friend of mine encouraged me to apply for this open position. Yeah. I said, Why would I do? That all of the, all of the job requirements I do not actually have, other than happening to be a Lutheran. And they said, listen, we've got people who do the program pieces. Yeah, been growing as an administrator in higher education. We want you to bring those administrative gifts into the camp setting. Yeah. And so that's been really, again, a refreshing thing about someone seeing a gift Yeah, I didn't think about or notice, and they said, No, you could be a good fit, and you should go through that discernment process.
Tyra Dennis:Well, like, God doesn't call the qualified, right? God qualifies the call. And I feel like that also, like, has a lot to do with gifts. As you were talking drew, I was thinking about all the kids whose lives you've impacted and where they ended up, and so, like, a good chunk of them ended up becoming leaders in the gathering, like, or they were speakers on the stage, or they served the mile, or they were on one of the planning teams and, and maybe you didn't hear this, because context matters. Like, I don't know where you were in New Orleans, but the amount of times your name came up, about, like, oh, yeah, I learned this from Drew, or, like, yeah, when I did the summit drew or Drew, Drew, Drew, yeah. So you, you know, it's even if you felt like you didn't have all the requirements, if the kids can see it right, like out of the mouths of babes, of course you had it. But anyways, God qualifies those that are called, not the other way around. Yeah, right,
Pastor Drew Tucker:yeah. RC thing, yeah. And
Pastor Joe Liles:also speaker at the gathering. So just kind of naming gathering, 16,000 people, right? Kind of restarting after COVID, right? My wife just the director of the gathering, and you had the opportunity to speak, which was absolutely wonderful, profound narrative, personal testimony, which was great. We've kind of shared that we were both terrified walking up on there, just to be honest, like we can walk up and still have a presence of leadership. But before, and I remember, like, Bishop Eaton walking by and like some other beat, and I'm like, Oh my gosh. I'm like, I'm going to fail in front of 17 that. And I was just like, here we go. It's when she calls
Tyra Dennis:you by name, yeah? So they're like, Oh no, she can literally go back and say Tyra messed up, not with that one girl, yeah.
Pastor Joe Liles:So how was your experience speaking at the
Pastor Drew Tucker:gathering. Similarly terrifying, yeah, one of the things I
Pastor Joe Liles:love this background, why don't we post interview every speaker at the gathering? We need to post interview every speaker. Like this was terrifying. It really is, right, and in part it is, yeah, spoken in front of 1000s before, played music in front of 1000s before. Jersey drummer. Wait, hold
Tyra Dennis:what you're a drummer this morning? Yeah,
Pastor Joe Liles:no, you weren't.
Pastor Drew Tucker:But so I need, I've got some professional gathered, but he
Pastor Joe Liles:can play, but he can play, apparently, yeah, he said, professional. Drop him in on like he didn't say, I played in church. He said, play professionally, real life, okay, but
Pastor Drew Tucker:all that is to say, one of the things that I found going up to that stage was that I realized I was in the stage, as you said, Tyra, where you are inviting other people into something in a different way, yeah. And the way I knew I was nervous was when I started taking the stairs up to the stage by two, jumping up on my way up, and I'm like, You absurd little man, you are gonna fall on your face before you ever say, yeah. So I had to, like, Okay, gonna slow down and walk the rest of the stage slowly before I get there, right? And so there was that piece of my body knew I was nervous before my mind, that's so
Pastor Joe Liles:funny. I use the exact opposite moment. That's just so funny. The stairs were the trigger, because I I ran to the stairs to get out the energy, like all that nervous energy, and then I was like, when I get to the stairs, I will walk one by one and calm my whole self right until I step out right? So the stairs are the opposite moment for me. I was like, when I hit those stairs, I'm powering down. So
Tyra Dennis:that's really funny, because for me, specifically to the main stage, like, when we would go on to the big stage, I would stay far away from the stairs. I'd be all the way up against, like the curtain of the lowest bowl, because I knew, like, once I needed to figure it out, and once I hurt go with my calm. I was like, I needed to, like, psych myself in that moment. It's what if? What if my inner pack falls off because I'm jumping right? Oh, yeah, absolutely. It did do, yeah. What if my costume malfunctions? Which it did do, yeah, totally. Get it back the jumping by two. Didn't see that one coming.
Pastor Drew Tucker:I didn't see me doing it either, until I was doing was like, I made these decisions on my own. Oh, yeah, that was a piece. But one of the things that I loved about that experience, and one of the things that I you know, tyre, appreciate you saying about the different people who said they had some kind of connection to me, yeah, they. We're in leadership there one of the pieces that we've all talked about, in some ways, how do we invite other people to do what we're doing? One of the things I learned in higher ed that I'm really applying now in outdoor ministry is that there are lots of things I can do. Yeah, there's a lot of things that I actually love to I love to play music. I there is a part of me that would just love to be in the band every week. Yeah, not worry about other pieces and parts. But if we're going to raise up new leaders, then one of the ways that I framed with our leadership team is I need to do what only I am called to do. Yeah? So sometimes that means like no one else is called to do my credit card report. There's nothing exciting. Can I just apologize to finance right now? I still have to get him a report, but we've been transitioning, and only I'm just gonna apologize to Brian Weaver, Hannah standover is coming. Don't worry. Thank you for bringing that up. I did not nice to meet you. Yep. Thank you. Spirit continues. College guilt, Lutheran guilt, so strikes, but that was one of the things. When I started at Capital University, I was preaching sometimes, because of all of our different worship opportunities, four or five times a week. And I love doing that because I love to preach, I love to speak, I love to the not just the engagement in community, but the art of forming that thing. Yeah? And that is so refreshing. And I realized very quickly, if we have all these leaders around, if we have this many opportunities, why am I the one Yeah, in that pulpit, yeah, we're on that stage five times a week, yeah? And so we got to the point where we had people, so many people, wanting to preach, that I went from preaching from five times a week to like, one time a month, yeah, yeah. That's great. And that was a whole shift in my sense of, how am I living out my calling? Yeah? But it was such an encouraging thing to realize that there was space for people to realize this wasn't their calling. Yeah, absolutely, they got the chance to try, yeah, and sometimes, again, just getting out of that way so that they can do what they're called to do. And I'm called to do these things to allow them, to empower them, to create that space for them.
Pastor Joe Liles:That was your message on Sunday, right? And if you can pull up that proverbs Bible verse, that was your message on Sunday, which I thought was the most profound thing, because in the because, and it's what I really took away. There are a lot of great parts your message, but what I was uniquely challenged by is when you said, when you give a gift, you give up control, right? And we're talking about gifts, we're talking about using gifts and leading with gifts and allowing others to lead with their gifts, right? And not only allowing them. So the let them and allow them is really hard language, yes, right. We're not letting them right, like, we are raising them up, right, and then at some point it's really not us raising them up anymore. That's the beautiful part. Like, like, there's a moment when, like, almost the invitation is extended. Like, I love when you talked about Jonathan, right? Because I really feel like the invitation was extended through him. Yeah, right. Even though it was to him, it was through him. And he saw the beauty of the through and not the two, right? And I was like, oh, and I think about that, like what we're truly doing is not letting people lead. That's not our control, right? We we've given that up, right? And so we have to take away our pride in that moment. And it's not a let them or allow them to Right, right? But through, God is moving through us to them, right? Like we're just a through point, right in a really beautiful way.
Tyra Dennis:He he said something to me once we got into it, you know, Pastor, worship leader debate. Are
Pastor Joe Liles:you talking about Jonathan or me? Jonathan,
Tyra Dennis:for those who don't know, Pastor two weeks, you gotta do it. Pastors and their worship leaders, often time they get into weird relationship, moments of like creative differences and just theological misunderstandings and just leadership tension, right? But there, I don't think I've ever told him this. Now I'm gonna have to tell him, but in one of our moments, he looked at me and said, Every song is not yours to sing. Tyra. Then I went, I know that, but if I'm the best singer, oh, you know. And it was that moment of and we he did laugh, because he knew what I said was in that moment was true to context, but that that's that is something that has stayed with me for life. Like, yeah, every song really isn't mine to sing. There have been songs that I've tried to sing where I sound absolutely it's just not for me. Yeah? Michael Buble, a lot of his songs, I'm just supposed to listen Yeah, right, yeah. It's just not for me to sing, right? And so I feel that that is the thing, right? Like, when you're talking about, like, the harsh, the harshness of the language of allow or letting it, I think it's more about allowing us and letting us recognize when to step back, like what leaders also know when they are not needed, yeah, right. And, and that's a growth thing, but that, I think that's where it comes like we we have to know when it's not our song to sing. We have to,
Pastor Drew Tucker:right? Well, so given that context, I think I'm going to also read the verse that came before the one nice that we used on Sunday, because when we talk. Generosity, part of that comes into the level of discernment of wisdom. And so this comes from Proverbs 1815, and 16, says, the heart of the discerning acquires knowledge for the ears of the wise seek it out a gift opens the way and ushers the giver into the presence of the great. And I think about if Jonathan is going to say to you, not every song is yours to sing. There is a discernment and a wisdom there. If, if I'm going to say, I love to preach, I think I'm good at preaching, but I don't need to be the one to preach, because other people are asking for space. Yeah? Then I need to be willing to listen to that. The ears of the wise have to be seeking it out if we're going to be the kind of leaders that this generation needs.
Pastor Joe Liles:Well. And I think too, we not only have to seek it out, we have to understand that we, too are taking in a word yes, and we don't know who God is reaching on the days when we're asked to lead. And I think our leadership can be seen through so many others, right? When I have people come up to me and you know, someone else preaches in the church and like, that was incredible. Was incredible. I don't take anything away, then God is doing an amazing thing, right? Like, and I know the struggle early on would have been like, Oh, but I preach really good too. Or, like, I try, you know, I'll be back next week, right? And more. So now I'm like, how much can I give away? Like, how much can I give away? But it doesn't feel like any lack of my leadership, though, right? And that transition, and I feel that from every one of us, right? It's more so how can I see your gifts that God has given you in the way that I believe God intended? And that's more the leadership. Now, do I love preaching Absolutely? Right? Love it every single moment. Do I love leading Absolutely? Do I love floating through the spaces of the church? Absolutely? Like Love that scholar leadership. I believe I'm called, and I love the call that I'm in right? Those things exist, but I love seeing God work through others, and that might be the most profound narrative. And where I'm at my call right now is, how is God using others and then watching them grow into their own right? And like, oh, and just stepping back and like, Oh, I knew you when you know I knew you when he started. And the people that do the same with me, they're like, do you remember my goal? I remember it's not a good season, you know, like, and here we and they kind of raise that up, and then they come through that, and to see the leaders come in like, Hey, we've been through that, like we've gone through this season, like we've been through this, and that's why we're here now. You know, we've done these things and so, so my heart is, I appreciate you both being here. It's been incredible. I love the collaboration and the conversations we had about it shouldn't only be us. I think that was a great takeaway from yesterday, and our kind of working time together was that the voices of the ELSI are important, and we need to raise them up and continue to raise them up and find spaces where leaders can be heard. And so I'm excited to see our journey in the future and what goes on with it. And so Drew. I know you're leaving today, so I wish you safe travels. So Michelle, we say thank you for allowing time with us and being there and having that presence with us. We did miss her, and so I publicly say that one, she was invited. Two, I really wanted her to be here with Drew, because Drew's cool. Let's be honest, though, Michelle is so much better. So yeah, she's the better Tucker. Early
Pastor Drew Tucker:on, I would have felt sad about that like, but I'm pretty cool too.
Pastor Joe Liles:No, she's she's better. No, you're cool. We ended, we ended with Drew. It's cool.
Tyra Dennis:Are we allowed to ask you a question? You can't. Do? You say, I can't. No,
Pastor Joe Liles:you said you can't. Oh, wow, she you see that look. I was like, she came with look, but you can't. Are you denying
Tyra Dennis:my gifts? No, no. Okay, on a scale of like, one to 10. One being doesn't faze me at all. 10 is like, oh my goodness, I should have just done the thing. I don't know where she's going. This is good. When you sit back and you're like, other people can leave whatever that is. Other people could preach. Other people could set up the sound, yeah, and then it's a mess, yeah. How? What level are you at on your scale of one to 10 of like, I should have just done the thing.
Pastor Joe Liles:It's that's a great question. That's a great question, and I will share my answer with you, right? This church will never live and die by Sunday, ever. Right? The what God does, and I strongly believe this. And I tell, I said, Break it. Break the whole thing, right? Because one
Tyra Dennis:April 20, keep going, and
Pastor Joe Liles:I tell this, and team members will hear it from me, right? Like there is nothing that you can break in this church, that God can't restore, God can't redeem, right? It's not a salvation issue. I hope so. Like there Now, mind you, there could be some things that are salvation issued, that if they break and something said, or something like that, that there is a lot that we have to do. But what I'm what I'm more saying, is that people being up here willing to lead, even if it goes wrong, even if it goes south, even if the note isn't hit, or the preaching doesn't land, or something is set on stage, like, for example, like a core team member cusses on Sunday. You know, like, if that were to happen,
Tyra Dennis:theoretically, yeah, theoretically,
Pastor Joe Liles:it should check out the YouTube from last Sunday that was recorded service, yeah, no, oh, you're right.
Tyra Dennis:It was, y'all are talking about Allah hurt was the piano player? Yeah, that's
Pastor Joe Liles:great. That's great. So, but like these parts, right? Like, we're even. So here's a great language, even if something like that happens. The amount of people that said, Hey, you said that. But that's what was in my soul, right? That's how I felt. We were trying to spiritualize it, and that was raw, and I needed raw, yeah, right? And the amount of people that are like, hey, is this your church? And I'm like, 100% Welcome to Real church. That's what God can redeem, that I'm not worried about anymore. Yeah, right, and I wouldn't say early. Here's the deal I love talking about, like, early leadership, early leadership. I protected the pulpit and I protected Sundays, no joke, like it was my preaching. My preaching only had to be the voice, different things like that. I will own that, right? And that was probably the first five years of the church, right, where it had I wasn't taught anything different. I didn't know anything different, right? No one told me it was okay, and it was important, and it was godly to raise others up in a voice right for other people to hear. I felt I had to be the only one right. That was the leadership I was given. And so when I get to a space now, and that's why I'm so passionate to teach other churches, is because I want to take what was probably a 10 year journey for our church and see if I can walk others through that, and maybe not 10 years, right? And the resilience and the endurance it takes for 10 years of that right to get to a space where I can love others and see the church grow and flourish in a way that hopefully, like others are leading on the side, right, like we're leading alongside others now, like, it's not only Joe, it's not just a Sunday version of church, right? That there is an expression of who we are on Sunday and Monday and Tuesday. So, so I love when things break, and we've had a couple things break in the last couple weeks, right? Great. And I've Liz people like, I'm glad that you broke it. And like, no, no, I feel like this wasn't really good. And I was like, I am 100% glad you did what you did, and I want you to do it again. And like, but why is it? Because, you know, much we've because you how much we learned like from that moment. And I was like, we learned so much about how to care for people and how to do this and how to engage people now, because they gave us feedback on this, this, this, and this, this. And I said, great, and we fixed it in an instant. And I was like, that's the beauty of it, right? So I'm actually excited when people take a step forward, take a step out in faith, and say, Hey, I went and did it great. That was not the way to do it. But like, Hey, we're gonna learn. Like, we're gonna learn now. Because why did you this? I thought this is I was like, Oh, I actually don't think like that. That's a really incredible way to think about that. I guess I'm just doing it the way I always did it. Oh, right. And I'm like, hold on, we can incorporate that. Let's pull this back in, right? And so I think there's an important part about so for me, not a one to 10. I'm excited for the ones, because I learn a lot. I learn a lot on a one day. I'm excited for the 10s, because it almost you can sit and rest into that. I find more rest in that and then. But I always believe that we're a church that's constantly going to be at a 567, like we will find things every single week to work on. And I never want to be outside of that. Never want to be outside of the faithful work of not successfulness, but faithfulness, right? Like living into the call that God has called us towards. That was a great question.
Tyra Dennis:Yeah. I asked it because, like, I've watched things break and Drew's always like, chill, yeah. It actually blows my mind at how chill you can be sometimes Drew and and, and not that you're not, but like Drew was a different type of chill. Drew is, like, it'll get fixed, and I'm not going to freak out, whereas you are actively fixing it, but you still, because
Pastor Joe Liles:they're like, I do not, I do not disagree with that. Still have, like, a chill vibe, yeah, there's a non anxious, but we're going to get it handled. Yeah. And
Tyra Dennis:then I think about, like, Chris, who is the mass gathering team leader, Team director of the LCA youth gathering. And, I mean, I've watched them build the stage literally wrong. They put carpet on the wrong part of the stage was it caught on fire. The stage was too small. The lights were too big. The Cross fell like I've seen them just not deliver sound equipment, like, just for two days, and he is the most calm I have ever seen him in those moments. And I'm always wondering, like, what's in your head? Yeah, are you doing the let it go and just let God and let their leadership show and do its thing? Are you in the if I would adjust, it could adjust, and it wouldn't be. Because I I tend to find myself in I present the the calm, ooh, sometimes, most of the times I present the calm. There are moments where I'm caught slipping and I am a Tasmanian devil, and it is if Donnie is not near me, then it sounds regular, who is but, but most, most of the time i i present the calm, but behind the scenes, like in my head, I'm probably, like, at a 12, and I know all the things that could have prevented this, yeah. And I just want to collect all my little pieces, yeah, put them back in the box and take them off. Box and go over there and like, don't touch my box, yeah, yeah. It's beautiful. Every time I touch my box, you something goes missing. It's broken, yeah, we're missing the one of the rooks to the chest, like, whatever it is. And but then that, then I become like, my worst self, yeah, right. Because people are like, but I need to get something out the box. I'm like, No, you had your moment, and you ruined it. So now the box is mine, and then it just becomes, like, really bad tension. So that's that's why I asked that, that I that's like, we talk about, like, all the good parts of, like raising up leaders and whatnot, and like helping others, or not helping. That's not the word, but like inviting others to use their gifts, yeah, but we never really have the honest conversation of what that actually looks like and how messy that process can be. Like, I could have just played piano at one of the E's and knew all the songs, yeah, and I didn't. I hired a piano player and they came. They were not prepared, yeah, and I never cut a song in a set. And I cut five songs,
Pastor Joe Liles:I will always risk crazy, I will always risk faithfulness, right, to raise other leaders up,
Pastor Drew Tucker:right? And part of it is you just need to be prepared to scream into your pillow at night, right? Like, you need to have that thing be like, Okay, I'm going to have my moment, but now is not talking to the dog. Y'all, well,
Pastor Joe Liles:here's the other part. I think the best leaders will be prepared for the moments that are unexpected, right? Yeah, those are the best. That's leaders we need to hear from, right? So I appreciate you guys are here. Appreciate the hour on this podcast this morning, having a great time talking through the life of the church and and I'm excited for us to gather again together same the next time. It's going to be great. So this is the TNC podcast, and we continue a new series Emotionally Healthy Spirituality coming up, which can be awesome. Go through the emotions that leads into a spiritual mindset of Christ, which is gonna be awesome. That starts next Sunday with our ninth And all God's people said,
Unknown:Amen. Praise God, from whom all blessings flow. Praise Him. Praise Him above ye Heavenly Host, praise Father Son and Holy glow. Yeah, just wouldn't
Pastor Joe Liles:let it. Oh, dang I.
